Punk Rock and the Alt-Right

[bostjan]

https://www.gq.com/story/punks-and-nazis-oral-history

I like how the article ties in current events with the history of early 80's punk. Thought it might spur a bit of conversation here.

Do fascists/neonazis tend to glam on to whatever is popular and can be interpretted (usually incorrectly) to fit their agenda?

Is history repeating itself?

 

[KnightBrolaire]

If we're talking about fascism in general, then the whole "goading people into fights in the streets/bars and acting like victims" thing has been going on since the 1930s. That's literally what the fascists in germany and italy were doing back before they seized power. They'd find their political adversaries and basically goad them into fights to get them imprisoned. There's also the smart usage of latching onto rampant nationalism and imperialistic ideals like xenophobia/racial superiority that permeated most cultures of that time. Obviously there's parallels to draw, as the neonazis in germany during the 80s/90s did the same thing, and nationalistic xenophobic, racist americans are currently doing the same thing. The real irony is that antifa members have been caught using similar tactics of violence and goading political adversaries into fights.

 

[Demiurge]

It's an interesting article, but is there a direct equivalent- shows getting bum-rushed by skinheads or the like- happening now? I don't really follow punk so I don't know... and as a metal fan I'm a bit numb to the idea of people's morbid fascination with evil becoming all-too-vivid affectations.

 

[Xaios]

Sad and unfortunate that a lot of underground genres have become havens for Nazi fucks. From punk to metal to industrial, all the way to things like neo-folk.

 

[bostjan]

It's an interesting article, but is there a direct equivalent- shows getting bum-rushed by skinheads or the like- happening now? I don't really follow punk so I don't know... and as a metal fan I'm a bit numb to the idea of people's morbid fascination with evil becoming all-too-vivid affectations.

Not so much in music now, but in reference to how the fascists and neo-nazis have attached themselves to Trump during the election and starting to become active in public again. I haven't seen neonazis at a show since the 1990's, personally.

 

[Drew]

The real irony is that antifa members have been caught using similar tactics of violence and goading political adversaries into fights.

Did you bother to read the article? Just curious. It's basically an article about how punk rockers started kicking the shit out of neo-Nazis at punk shows and mockign them, and eventually they stopped coming.

Brecht: I decided to let the worst Nazi of all get up on stage, and gave him the mike and let him say what he wanted to say. Of course, he wasn't very intelligent and he started sieg-heiling and saying racist nonsense or whatever. Our tour manager grabbed a drum stand and walloped him on the back of the head. Once they saw we attacked the Nazi, then everybody else started attacking his buddies out in the audience.

Keith Morris (frontman, Black Flag and Circle Jerks): I witnessed this thing called the Wall of Death in Trenton, New Jersey, at the City Gardens. The skinheads would line up at the back bar and lock arms and run towards the front of the stage, and if you just happened to get in their way, you'd get knocked down, you'd get kicked, you'd get trampled. I leapt off the stage and got in the face of the biggest guy—he probably would have hit me a couple of times, and I would have been in traction in the hospital. I'm ready to get pulverized. I'm ready to just be a puddle, a broken and busted blob of humanity, lying in the middle of this dance floor.

And all of a sudden it's like the trumpeteers going, "Da da da da da!" Here comes the cavalry. It's all the bouncers saying, "This thing's been going on for like six to eight months a year, we just let everybody do what they're going to do, and people get hurt and leave early and people go to their cars and drive away. We don't want them here anymore." Now I've got like six bouncers—we're the Avengers, the Hulk, and Thor and Iron Man.


Tobin Bawinkel (singer and guitarist, Flatfoot 56): At the Crocodile Rock Café in Allentown, Pennsylvania, there was a skinhead crew there. It was prior to the alt-right thing. We were doing our set, [including a] cover of "We're Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sister as kind of a joke song. Three of the biggest skinheads I've ever seen stand in the middle of the pit and start sieg-heiling. I lost it. I started yelling at them and freaking out: "This is not a place you're welcome at, we don't want you here, you need to leave." They just stood there and stared at me. All the bands we were on tour with started to file in behind me with bats and anything they could find, and started glaring. "Hey, Tobin's faced off against the Nazis! Get up there!"

Rollins: When I was able to get the audience to turn on them, it was interesting to often see how upset that made them, like they had no idea how much people hated them. I found this approach to be effective. It's not for me to instruct someone to go hit someone else, but if I can say something that makes everyone laugh at these guys, it empowers the right people and diminishes the right people.

Rollins: Now, people should avoid physical confrontation. When I was young, it was a bloody nose, the occasional stabbing. Now it's a gun under the car seat. When you hit someone, it's assault and you can go to jail and pay a ton in fines and lawyers. Protesters must realize that a lot of these guys come prepared to goad you into a fight. They're often more ready than you will ever be. If you start showing up with your helmet and all, then it escalates, and soon someone is going to empty a magazine of rounds into a crowd and it will go from there. I think that's going to happen anyway, but it shouldn't be you.

There's this alt-right myth that anti-fascists are somehow just as bad as fascists, because they don't hesitate to use violence when attacked. That's a load of crap. Fighting racistm and fascism has ALWAYS been a violent endeavor - we've fought a few wars over this. That's nothing new, and this latest attempt to condemn the method is just an attempt to distract from and legitimize the message.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

Did you bother to read the article? Just curious. It's basically an article about how punk rockers started kicking the shit out of neo-Nazis at punk shows and mockign them, and eventually they stopped coming.



There's this alt-right myth that anti-fascists are somehow just as bad as fascists, because they don't hesitate to use violence when attacked. That's a load of crap. Fighting racistm and fascism has ALWAYS been a violent endeavor - we've fought a few wars over this. That's nothing new, and this latest attempt to condemn the method is just an attempt to distract from and legitimize the message.

Yes I read the article. Did you even read my post? I'm not sure what part of my previous post was unclear, I mentioned antifa using similar tactics as 1930s fascists being ironic, because there's a direct parallel in the tactics used by both. I just like the irony of a group declaring themselves anti-fascists and then using essentially the same types of tactics that actual fascists have used. You can call it a myth, but when antifa and alt-right members have both been arrested for violence/caught on camera fighting, it's not really a myth.

 

[MFB]

Yes I read the article. Did you even read my post? I'm not sure what part of my previous post was unclear, I mentioned antifa using similar tactics as 1930s fascists being ironic, because there's a direct parallel in the tactics used by both. I just like the irony of a group declaring themselves anti-fascists and then using essentially the same types of tactics that actual fascists have used. You can call it a myth, but when antifa and alt-right members have both been arrested for violence/caught on camera fighting, it's not really a myth.

The myth isn't that antifa have never been arrested for violence, the myth is that antifa using violence to fight actual fascists makes them just as bad as the real fascists they're fighting; which absolutely isn't true.

 

[KnightBrolaire]

The myth isn't that antifa have never been arrested for violence, the myth is that antifa using violence to fight actual fascists makes them just as bad as the real fascists they're fighting; which absolutely isn't true.

if we're being reductive, violence=violence. That's more what I was trying to point out. I don't agree with the alt-right ideals in any capacity (especially as a nonwhite) and obviously there are degrees of violence, ie hitting someone in the face with a bike lock isn't the same as running them over with a car, but that's essentially what I meant.

 

[MFB]

I don't agree with the alt-right ideals in any capacity (especially as a nonwhite) but if we're being reductive, violence=violence. That's more what I was trying to point out. Obviously there are degrees of violence, ie hitting someone in the face with a bike lock isn't the same as running them over with a car.

So, by that same logic, those who used violence during WWII to also stop actual fascists should've been trying to use other means? If they won't listen to reason, then you have to resort to action, which is why we've had to come down to violence ('we' in the collective sense of anyone opposing fascists, I'm not an antifa member by any means).

 

[vilk]

durrrrrrrrrrr the facists ate potatos
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh antifa eats potatos
ummmmmm its' so ironic, right?!

 

[KnightBrolaire]

So, by that same logic, those who used violence during WWII to also stop actual fascists should've been trying to use other means? If they won't listen to reason, then you have to resort to action, which is why we've had to come down to violence ('we' in the collective sense of anyone opposing fascists, I'm not an antifa member by any means).

I'm not opposed to violence if no other options are available (though obviously they were not in regards to WW2).

 

[MFB]

I'm not opposed to violence if no other options are available (though obviously they were not in regards to WW2).

Which I think is what this all boils down to. There was a time for civility, but when we've fought a world war over these bullshit arguments and the majority group continue to say "cut this shit out and walk on home boy" but they won't listen, it's time to act.

durrrrrrrrrrr the facists ate potatos
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh antifa eats potatos
ummmmmm its' so ironic, right?!

Not to try and be Mod Squad Jr, but shit like this doesn't further the discussion at all, so how about we just don't post it?

 

[Xaios]

Nazis use violence as a means of oppression. Antifa uses violence as a means to stop oppression. That's a pretty key difference, one that can't simply be handwaived away by saying "all violence bad."

 

[Drew]

if we're being reductive, violence=violence. That's more what I was trying to point out. I don't agree with the alt-right ideals in any capacity (especially as a nonwhite) and obviously there are degrees of violence, ie hitting someone in the face with a bike lock isn't the same as running them over with a car, but that's essentially what I meant.

And my point was resistance to Nazis and neo-Nazis has ALWAYS been violent, since for the groups Nazis persecute, it's a matter of life or death.

And, while we're at it, that "violence = violence" is an attempt to normalize the alt-right by ignoring their motives and focusing on their means. Nazis have always been met with violence, and it's incredibly disingenuous to pretend that the problem here isn't Nazism, it's violence.

 

[vilk]

Not to try and be Mod Squad Jr,

You sure? Coulda fooled me.

Does further conversation on account of it illustrates an argument against a point: doing something the same as your enemy is not inherently/necessarily ironic.

But what IS ironic (or maybe only just hypocritical?) is that what you wrote to me furthers the discussion even less than what I wrote. Maybe you shouldn't have posted it.

but most of all, I'm very, very sorry that I hurt everyone's feelings. Hope you guys can all forgive me, specifically any moderator whose arm is heavy with the hammer. I'll even say 10 Hail Marys

 

[MaxOfMetal]

You sure? Coulda fooled me.

Does further conversation on account of it illustrates an argument against a point: doing something the same as your enemy is not inherently/necessarily ironic.

But what IS ironic (or maybe only just hypocritical?) is that what you wrote to me furthers the discussion even less than what I wrote. Maybe you shouldn't have posted it.

but most of all, I'm very, very sorry that I hurt everyone's feelings. Hope you guys can all forgive me, specifically any moderator whose arm is heavy with the hammer. I'll even say 10 Hail Marys

You come off as a somewhat decent guy with a grasp on reality until you go and show everyone why you shouldn't be taken seriously in even the most not serious adult conversations. Reel in the e-peen by a few inches and maybe folks would be okay with a lackluster joke or not funny wisecrack every now and then. Have a good evening.

 

[vilk]

nvm

 

[bostjan]

Violence = violence, I believe is a relation that tells us nothing, essentially.

Violence = (insert word here that tells us what violence is) is a different story.

Violence is a tool that is effective as a last resort. I think some would disagree and say that violence is never effective, but I'm going to go ahead and say that those people need to be very careful and clever in order to affect the world around them once their antagonists resort to violence.

Anyway, the tool is of less interest to me than the motivating force using it. If anti-fa is using violence as a mechanism to defend someone or to counter another violent faction, then I'm ambivalent. If the group incites violence at a peaceful protest or something, then I think there's more to discuss.

But, at the meta-level, I get the feeling that bringing up anti-fa and violence in a conversation that is not about anti-fa and not about any specific violence that involves anti-fa directly, is just a red herring that gets commonly thrown into a discussion in order to derail it.

So, in my humble opinion, either a) we talk about a specific instance of anti-fa's use of violence and deconstruct it logically or b) we talk about anything else and stick to that. I'm not saying "don't bring up anti-fa unless ____," I'm just suggesting that maybe bringing up anti-fa every time anyone mentions neonazis might just be one of those common things that leads to a weak discussion.

 

[Xaios]

But, at the meta-level, I get the feeling that bringing up anti-fa and violence in a conversation that is not about anti-fa and not about any specific violence that involves anti-fa directly, is just a red herring that gets commonly thrown into a discussion in order to derail it.

This is a really excellent point. Nearly every time I see someone bring anti-fa violence up, it's clearly meant as a deflection. It's kind of like if two children misbehave and one is caught, they'll immediately turn on the other one in an effort to either deflect or delegitimize criticism aimed at them.

(Not a perfect example, by the way, because it implies that neither party had legitimacy, which is not necessarily the case with regards to anti-fa.)