Starting over in your 30's, major life direction change

[russmuller]

I've been crazy about guitars and music since I was about 10 years old, and that's been the biggest driving force in my life. When I finished with high school, I decided to pursue music because I didn't want to be one of those people who never tried to fulfill their dreams. I knew the odds of success weren't good, and eventually I learned that music is my passion but I don't want to make it my living.

In the meantime, I fell into a career in tech support and IT. I was able to lean on my education in audio engineering (which included basic networking and computer maintenance) to roll that into a series of decent paying jobs to keep me going while I focused on music. I went from making music to making recordings to making guitars, and they're all still very important to me. But realistically, my career prospects (at least the stable, financially viable ones) are all in the corporate IT world. I'm not enthused by this prospect. Even if I found a job that paid me double what I make now, my only motivation is the income. I don't actually care about the work that I do. The best I can hope for is to work for a company that I believe in that will pay me to do un-fulfilling work.

I always wanted to work in some kind of science field, because the nature of the universe is very interesting to me. I had always been intensely curious about physics, specifically with efforts to unify gravity with the other forces we understand. But I could never convince myself to dive in and rigorously study the field because it's the sort of domain where it can take lifetimes before it's even feasible to test a hypothesis.

Over the past few years, I've developed an intense curiosity about consciousness and the phenomena of subjectivity and the "self." I've gone on meditation retreats, and burned through books on the topic from both philosophical and neuroscientific perspectives. The more I learn, the more I realize that I have an aptitude for grasping these concepts and putting them together in a coherent framework. It has dawned on me that this is a field where there is much work to be done, but it's not so abstract that we can't readily make and test predictions. If I applied myself, I might be able to actually contribute in some meaningful way.

So now, here in my early 30's, I'm looking at re-enrolling as an undergraduate in a Neuroscience and Cognitive Science program. I'd have to attend full-time (which means only working part time) and relocate 100 miles away, and then I'm looking at committing myself to another 8+ years of school. It seems crazy, but at least I'd be spending that time and effort growing in some meaningful way. I don't know where this journey will take me, but at least I'm excited about it. I can't stand the idea of spending the next 30 years processing IT tickets for corporate idiots.

I'm going to have to spend the next year or so fulfilling science prerequisites at local community colleges and paying down my debt so that I'm not financially struggling when I get started in this program. I'm planning to keep this thread updated every few months throughout the process in case it inspires some of you to take a similar leap. Any words of caution or support are appreciated.

TL;DR I'm planning to quit my life and go back to school to be a neuroscientist, because it's way more interesting to me than IT.

 

[vansinn]

Having spent 3+ decades in electronics and IT, it just no longer drives me, but became biz as usual. That, and my research into what silicon is used for that isn't compatible with concepts like freedom and privacy.

I fortunately lost my career due to snapping from brute-force work stress.
Thus, economy more than sucks, but this is my option to remake myself in my own image
Actually, this is the third time I change direction (I'm 58, so I'm excused by nature of neurotic decay).

Happy choosing your potential new direction

Interestingly, we seem to share interests in neuroscience (though I don't do science, merely study out of interest).

 

[CapnForsaggio]

This is very exciting! Good luck on your endeavor.

The pursuit of knowledge is (should be) lifelong. It sounds like you want to become a research oriented doctor/scientist.... That would be interesting to me too.

My favorite inspirational quote:

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” - Robert Heinlein

- Michael Scott

 

[TheHandOfStone]

I just finished a master's degree and am currently trying to get into PhD programs in experimental psychology. I too am an avid consumer of all things cognitive science. I think I might be able to offer a bit of advice. Since you said "8+ years," I'm going to assume that you're looking to complete a PhD as well. For this reason, my advice is intended to help for both undergraduate and graduate levels.

If you're thinking about becoming an academic researcher, you need to know that your career path will be nearly as fraught with competition as those of your friends in the arts. Many PhDs never land a teaching position, and of those that do, many never attain tenure. This may or may not mean making more money than you currently do in IT. Furthermore, because adjuncts have to work a lot of hours in order to make ends meet, they often don't have time to conduct interesting new research. If you think you'd be happy teaching neuroscience to potentially-disinterested undergraduates for a living, then proceed. On the bright side, most PhD programs in the sciences do offer substantial fellowships and scholarships, so you may not need to take out any loans for that. If you can manage the undergraduate program financially, you can probably also afford to get a PhD, provided that you don't take a very long time to finish.

For PhD programs, institutional prestige unfortunately matters a lot. You have a significantly better chance of landing a good research/teaching position if you attend a top-ranked program. Getting into these programs is very difficult for those without good undergraduate GPAs and lots of research experience. I get the impression that you're pretty smart, so I don't think the former will be much of a problem for you. However, I worry about how your situation will impact the latter. It's difficult to find time to get involved in (generally unpaid) undergraduate research while attending school and working full-time. I'm not sure where having a fulfilling life outside of your career path is supposed to fit in, either. Since you've been reading about cognitive science already, you may or may not have an idea of what you want to investigate. If you do, that's good, because you'll have to convince professors (and later, admission committees) that you have something to contribute.

All of this might sound rather bleak, and to some extent it is, but I'm not saying it to discourage you. The fact that you only have to support yourself through all of this (as opposed to say, children) definitely helps. In fact, you actually have more in common with the "average" college student than you might think. As more and more people attend college, it becomes less of an affluent early-20s phenomenon. And while many folks start on the academic research path early, there are some who do not. I had a professor who played in a fusion band and studied meditation before finally earning his neuroscience PhD later in life. Whether you try to follow a similar winding path or stay in your current field, I only wish you the best.

 

[ncfiala]

Good luck to you. It's a long haul. I went to school pretty much continuously until I was 28 to get my Ph.D. in mathematics. Now at 42, I find myself wanting to change careers and go to law school. Unfortunately, it is a financial impossibility, even though I know I could handle the schooling. I hope you're able to financially pull it off and not be ridiculously in debt when you're done. I'm fortunate enough to have an academic job and tenure (and no debt), but such jobs are exceedingly difficult to obtain.

I don't mean to sound like a downer, but these are all things that you should consider.

 

[Edika]

I wish you the best but it is not gong to be an easy road. Unfortunately science is not the romantic picture that movies paint it out to be and in some countries age and scientific work up to that point counts a lot for work prospects after you finish your studies. It's more of a business than science anymore where you have a race to publish as much as possible, find one or two year post docs until you find a position at a University and then hunt down grants for your research making you a manager and glorified baby sitter for PhD students and post docs you'll have to hire and squeeze out as much out of them to get the work done. Unless you're quite lucky and you find work in industry or a hospital (that does research probably I know little about that field) at about 40 with no previous work experience in that scientific area.

Just to let you know I have a friend that is an astrophysicists that did a post doc in NASA, was for 5 year post doc in Montpellier (in France), he had really good publications but seeing his work prospects decided to change to working for finance using his math and computer simulation models experience to design financial products. He's quite happy that he doesn't have to worry if he'll find another post doc and a permanent position somewhere. It still took him a while as he had to convince finance people that he could do that job (better than them I should add lol!).

That is the reality for scientists in the wonderful world of free market and enterprise. It doesn't mean you can't succeed but the probabilities are quite bad. I'm not trying to discourage you, even though my post would suggest so, but it's best to know the realities of the path you're choosing than finding out as a series of nasty surprises. Perseverance and sacrifice are the main attributes you must have as well as a really focused target.

 

[bostjan]

We have little time on this Earth. Spend it doing something you enjoy doing.

 

[Hachetjoel]

I think a lot of people never follow their dreams and a lot of people are left with a lot of what ifs, it sounds like you're really going after your dreams. I wish I had something cool and profound to say but all I can really say is go get it and I think as long as you fully commit to being happy you can't go wrong

 

[cwhitey2]

Not to be a Debbie downer, but why neuroscience? My ex gf majored in that and unless you are a doctor it's a pretty useless degree.

 

[russmuller]

I just finished a master's degree and am currently trying to get into PhD programs in experimental psychology. I too am an avid consumer of all things cognitive science. I think I might be able to offer a bit of advice. Since you said "8+ years," I'm going to assume that you're looking to complete a PhD as well. For this reason, my advice is intended to help for both undergraduate and graduate levels.

If you're thinking about becoming an academic researcher, you need to know that your career path will be nearly as fraught with competition as those of your friends in the arts. Many PhDs never land a teaching position, and of those that do, many never attain tenure. This may or may not mean making more money than you currently do in IT. Furthermore, because adjuncts have to work a lot of hours in order to make ends meet, they often don't have time to conduct interesting new research. If you think you'd be happy teaching neuroscience to potentially-disinterested undergraduates for a living, then proceed. On the bright side, most PhD programs in the sciences do offer substantial fellowships and scholarships, so you may not need to take out any loans for that. If you can manage the undergraduate program financially, you can probably also afford to get a PhD, provided that you don't take a very long time to finish.

For PhD programs, institutional prestige unfortunately matters a lot. You have a significantly better chance of landing a good research/teaching position if you attend a top-ranked program. Getting into these programs is very difficult for those without good undergraduate GPAs and lots of research experience. I get the impression that you're pretty smart, so I don't think the former will be much of a problem for you. However, I worry about how your situation will impact the latter. It's difficult to find time to get involved in (generally unpaid) undergraduate research while attending school and working full-time. I'm not sure where having a fulfilling life outside of your career path is supposed to fit in, either. Since you've been reading about cognitive science already, you may or may not have an idea of what you want to investigate. If you do, that's good, because you'll have to convince professors (and later, admission committees) that you have something to contribute.

All of this might sound rather bleak, and to some extent it is, but I'm not saying it to discourage you. The fact that you only have to support yourself through all of this (as opposed to say, children) definitely helps. In fact, you actually have more in common with the "average" college student than you might think. As more and more people attend college, it becomes less of an affluent early-20s phenomenon. And while many folks start on the academic research path early, there are some who do not. I had a professor who played in a fusion band and studied meditation before finally earning his neuroscience PhD later in life. Whether you try to follow a similar winding path or stay in your current field, I only wish you the best.

Thanks for all the info and perspective. I am looking at going all the way through Bull S..t, More S..t, then Piled Higher and Deeper. My BS in Business is so far divorced from cognitive science that I'm essentially starting at square 1. But knowing how important my academic performance will be for my future opportunities, I'll be sure to focus on maintaining a high GPA. I'll be starting out at University of Arizona, which seems to be moderately well regarded and has opportunities for undergraduate research in the field. From there, I'll try to level up to someplace with a bit more prestige for my master's degree and try to build upward momentum. I have a step brother who is working on his doctorate in counseling psychology and a friend who has spent the past 2 years trying to get into a doctoral program in Europe, so I know how tough it can be to even get accepted.

I'm very interested in the origins of human consciousness and the self, particularly in constructing a working model that's coherent with an evolutionary perspective. At the very least, I tend to write well and would love to author some books once I feel I've got an understanding worth sharing. Doing research on consciousness would be ideal, but I'm open to a lot of possibilities. There's a lot of time between now and a PhD for experience to pull my interests in one direction or another. I may find myself compelled to work on neurodegenerative diseases, or perhaps I'll seize an opportunity to capitalize on the development of new brain imaging techniques. These things will come into focus as I learn more.

 

[bostjan]

Get a nice scholarship or assistanceship or fellowship, and you should be fine. If not, you could end up with quite a bit of debt. I would say not to worry about the debt, but you should have ways to avoid a vast majority of your tuition anyway.

Good luck!

 

[russmuller]

Not to be a Debbie downer, but why neuroscience? My ex gf majored in that and unless you are a doctor it's a pretty useless degree.

Because 1 in 5 Americans will experience mental illness during their adult lives. My grandfather suffered from Parkinson's and Alzheimer's to the degree that he couldn't remember any of his adult life, nor hold on to anything for more than a few seconds. All of human well-being and suffering ultimately boils down to modulating states of mind and consciousness, and yet we know so little about how it really works. To draw on an analogy by Sam Harris, one need only glance at the list of side effects for any psych med to appreciate that these are terribly blunt instruments. We know how to make bodies live longer, but we hardly know how to make life better. I believe this is one of the most important frontiers of research.

 

[Promit]

I work in neuro @ Hopkins. I am not a neuroscientist myself (SW dev) but I do work day-to-day with a lot of them*.

Over the past few years, I've developed an intense curiosity about consciousness and the phenomena of subjectivity and the "self." I've gone on meditation retreats, and burned through books on the topic from both philosophical and neuroscientific perspectives.

I'm sorry, but odds are good that you already know the sum total of what neuroscience properly understands about this topic. (There's also a good chance that about half of that knowledge is garbage, but that's for another time.) If you're looking for philosophical answers, you're not likely to find them this way. The field is far too much in its infancy to even frame serious questions along these lines, let alone answer them in any credible way. If you want to study the mechanics of the nervous system or try to understand why we learn and behave the way we do, neuroscience might have some insights into that. If you want to work on understanding neurological ailments like the ones you mentioned, neuroscience takes that very seriously. But what you asked for in the first couple lines of your original post? Nope.

So now, here in my early 30's, I'm looking at re-enrolling as an undergraduate in a Neuroscience and Cognitive Science program. I'd have to attend full-time (which means only working part time) and relocate 100 miles away, and then I'm looking at committing myself to another 8+ years of school.

Specifically, you're committing yourself to:
* A full undergraduate degree.
* A full master's degree.
* Potentially one to two years of research assistantship
* More likely than not a full doctoral degree
* More likely than not a post doctoral fellowship

It seems crazy, but at least I'd be spending that time and effort growing in some meaningful way.

Only if you're realistic about what neuroscience is and isn't, and the day to day reality of what working in science is about. 90% of your time is analyzing other people's data, running other people's studies, dealing with grants, and trying to write publishable papers based on your lab Principal Investigator's ideas, not your own. By the way, here's our latest paper. Now we study movement primarily, but I wanted to give you a flavor of what's ahead. You might want to pick up a few issues of Journal of Neuroscience, because you're going to read literally 500+ of these papers in the course of doing the work.

perhaps I'll seize an opportunity to capitalize on the development of new brain imaging techniques.

Not sure if you're talking about developing imaging or using it. Neuroscientists aren't involved when developing imaging techniques. It's also vastly overrated as a tool for learning about the brain, and generally the analysis is mostly done by biostatistics people.

I'm going to have to spend the next year or so fulfilling science prerequisites at local community colleges and paying down my debt so that I'm not financially struggling when I get started in this program.

On the subject of debt, I hope you realize this path is most likely going to accumulate a whole heaping lot of it. I know this is very uncool to highlight, but there's far too much of it nowadays.

* If you want to know more about my personal work, read this.

 

[austink]

I am amped that you are going to pursue your quest for knowledge, but will echo back some of what has been said before. I am a scientist (physics), I completed my masters a few years ago and ultimately decided against phd school in favor to work in industry.

The number of individuals who can actually make a living out of academic research is incredibly low. The number of tenure track positions is shrinking and the competition for each position is growing. I too had the dream of sticking in the research realm but the feasibility of actually making that work was bleak. I took top honors in both undergrad and grad school, and was encouraged by many faculty members to find a phd program at a top university but just as many said that given the current academic situation in the US, it just isn't worth it.

As someone who has seen first hand how research gets funded, it is a crazy process that takes a ton of time. So much paperwork is required that it restricts the actual amount of research time available. The group I was part of was one of two groups globally who were doing the kind of research we did (we were in collaboration with the other group), and we were featured in major publishings, conferences etc. The application for NSF funding was still a nightmare that required effort from every lab member.

To offer some "insider" insight, I was also involved in the hiring process for a tenure track position at the university. For that one position we had about 6 individuals who actually made the preliminary cut and came to the school to interview in person and give a colloquium talk. All of these people had beyond impressive CVs with global experience at many top academic institutions. On top of having phd from well respected universities, they had post doc experience at national labs etc. They were all fighting for a position at a school not really even known for its physics dept. So while the time line may be 8ish years( on the extremely quick end) to obtain a doctorate degree, the time needed to potentially make a living off of doing novel, original research is probably double that.

This is all just my insight based upon my time spent in the academic world. It is fairly common for people in the sciences to realize what they thought they wanted to do is not actually what they enjoy once they see the full scope of what it entails so your journey may change once you get started. Best of luck either way!

 

[russmuller]

I work in neuro @ Hopkins. I am not a neuroscientist myself (SW dev) but I do work with a lot of them*.
I'm sorry, but odds are good that you already know the sum total of what neuroscience properly understands about this topic. (There's also a good chance that about half of that knowledge is garbage, but that's for another time.) If you're looking for philosophical answers, you're not likely to find them this way. The field is far too much in its infancy to even frame serious questions along these lines, let alone answer them in any credible way. If you want to study the mechanics of the nervous system or try to understand why we learn and behave the way we do, neuroscience might have some insights into that. If you want to work on understanding neurological ailments like the ones you mentioned, neuroscience takes that very seriously. But what you asked for in the first couple lines of your original post? Nope.

Specifically, you're committing yourself to:
* A full undergraduate degree.
* A full master's degree.
* Potentially one to two years of research assistantship
* More likely than not a full doctoral degree
* More likely than not a post doctoral fellowship

Only if you're realistic about what neuroscience is and isn't, and the day to day reality of what working in science is about. 90% of your time is analyzing other people's data, running other people's studies, dealing with grants, and trying to write publishable papers based on your lab Principal Investigator's ideas, not your own. By the way, here's our latest paper. Now we study movement primarily, but I wanted to give you a flavor of what's ahead. You might want to pick up a few issues of Journal of Neuroscience.

That's not neuroscience, and involvement of outside neuroscientists is pretty minimal. You wouldn't think so, but most biomedical engineering is like that.
On the subject of debt, I hope you realize this path is most likely going to accumulate a whole heaping lot of it. I know this is very uncool to highlight, but there's far too much of it nowadays.

* If you want to know more about my personal work, read this.

It's precisely because the field is so underdeveloped that I think I'd have an opportunity to contribute. I'm not hoping to learn the answers through my education, but merely to become equipped with the tools to investigate further. I know that the reality of the science is a long ways away from satisfying my philosophical curiosity, but learning the details of neural circuits and how they interact would surely help ground and guide my conception of how the brain gives rise to mind regardless of what topic my working hours are devoted to.

I have a few uncles who work at a national laboratory, one of them as a research chemist and the other who specialized in superconducting magnets (usually in particle colliders). I've heard many tales over the years so I've got a slightly less rosy picture of what scientists do than the average moviegoer, but I sincerely appreciate your perspective.

The journal article you linked is precisely the kind of stuff I find fascinating.

 

[russmuller]

I am amped that you are going to pursue your quest for knowledge, but will echo back some of what has been said before. I am a scientist (physics), I completed my masters a few years ago and ultimately decided against phd school in favor to work in industry.

The number of individuals who can actually make a living out of academic research is incredibly low. The number of tenure track positions is shrinking and the competition for each position is growing. I too had the dream of sticking in the research realm but the feasibility of actually making that work was bleak. I took top honors in both undergrad and grad school, and was encouraged by many faculty members to find a phd program at a top university but just as many said that given the current academic situation in the US, it just isn't worth it.

As someone who has seen first hand how research gets funded, it is a crazy process that takes a ton of time. So much paperwork is required that it restricts the actual amount of research time available. The group I was part of was one of two groups globally who were doing the kind of research we did (we were in collaboration with the other group), and we were featured in major publishings, conferences etc. The application for NSF funding was still a nightmare that required effort from every lab member.

To offer some "insider" insight, I was also involved in the hiring process for a tenure track position at the university. For that one position we had about 6 individuals who actually made the preliminary cut and came to the school to interview in person and give a colloquium talk. All of these people had beyond impressive CVs with global experience at many top academic institutions. On top of having phd from well respected universities, they had post doc experience at national labs etc. They were all fighting for a position at a school not really even known for its physics dept. So while the time line may be 8ish years( on the extremely quick end) to obtain a doctorate degree, the time needed to potentially make a living off of doing novel, original research is probably double that.

This is all just my insight based upon my time spent in the academic world. It is fairly common for people in the sciences to realize what they thought they wanted to do is not actually what they enjoy once they see the full scope of what it entails so your journey may change once you get started. Best of luck either way!

Very much appreciated. Certainly, I think there's a lot of unfortunate truth to your feedback and the sentiments echoed by others. I'm not committed to anything at this point, and I'm planning to visit the university and try to speak with some of the students and researchers to get a more informed perspective.

Ultimately, I want to get out of corporate IT and I feel like it would be a waste of my aptitude to not pursue my scientific curiosity.

 

[austink]

I missed that comment about brain imaging. If you actually have a desire to learn about and develop new scanning techniques etc. medical physics is where you want to look. I am not a medical physicist but have taken classes on medical physics and all of the information involved in the scanning of bodies. CT scans and nmr/mri are all physics driven fields.

I do have experience in the nmr field though as I worked 2 years in that industry (we were scanning for explosives).

Working and researching medical imaging is likely a much shorter timeline. Medical physicist only require a master degree and a few credentials to start working.

 

[angus]

Specifically, you're committing yourself to:
* A full undergraduate degree.
* A full master's degree.
* Potentially one to two years of research assistantship
* More likely than not a full doctoral degree
* More likely than not a post doctoral fellowship

In response to this (and to the OP), I think it is worth clarifying:

If you do another undergrad and do research during your undergrad, you do NOT need to get a Master's, and you do do NOT need to do research assistant work.

You can (and should attempt to) complete you BS then apply directly into PhD programs. Most PhD programs award Master's (often in a science degree +/- a master's in philosophy degree; all pointless), but you do not AT ALL need one and it will be a waste of time to get one. Just to BS -> PhD. Just do research during your undergrad experience.

Also, doing research during your undergrad time will show you what ACTUAL PhD research looks like. It's not fancy, it's not flighty; it's very deep in details, nitty-gritty, tedious-experiments-resulting-in-small-findings that you can't explain to your friends because it requires 3 years of biology to even address the concept. It's very, very specialized. Just be prepared. And it's a lot different than what people expect.

Anyway, it will still be more than 8 years (4UG + 5PhD + 1-2 Post-doc before you can get a job as a "finished" PhD), but you should not waste time getting a Master's or being a research assistant.

 

[TheHandOfStone]

If you can skip going for a terminal master's degree and go straight into a good PhD program, do it. However, you may not be able to even if you do everything near-perfectly. The top schools get enough applications that they still end up turning down lots of people with strong credentials.

 

[austink]

If you can skip going for a terminal master's degree and go straight into a good PhD program, do it. However, you may not be able to even if you do everything near-perfectly. The top schools get enough applications that they still end up turning down lots of people with strong credentials.

Not to mention that you would need to know exactly what specific aspect you would want to focus on and hope that your undergrad research was in said field. A competitive phd lab group is not going to accept an individual with no applied research in that specific field. A masters program offers the middle ground where you can figure out what specific aspect of research you like and hopefully gain experience in a lab for that topic.

There is also a huge difference between undergrad level research and phd level research. Undergrad research = watching someone else first then just repeating what they did/data processing.
Phd level= under minimal guidance designing and working through your hypothesis.