The bear, and us being from Mars and Venus

[soliloquy]

(Mods, please feel free to move this to off topic, or delete the thread if required)

This might be tone deaf in this thread, as I believe majority of us on SS.org are identifying as male, but I think this is a thread that needs to be discussed with appropriate respect and dignity.

By now, I'm sure you've heard of the 'Bear vs man' debate that is taking over Twitter, reddit, facebook, insta etc.

You may also be keeping up with what is happening in South Korea in regards to Patriarchy vs Feminism, and how that is destroying their social structure. Sadly South Korea is not alone in this as the same trend is being felt in various other countries, industries, religions, races, various age groups etc...

To make things more complicated: politically there is a growing divide between women and men. Women are becoming more liberal in their political views, while men are growing more conservative, it seems.

This is also giving rise to the toxic dating world that it is today.

More complicated, still, our education systems seem to not be working either. Women are outpacing men in just about every subject they are entering. Same goes for work, where if both candidates are on equal footings with same merits, generally speaking, women are doing better in terms of work. Maybe a different educational system is required just to combat the equity vs equality debate?

wondering if you've seen/experienced anything on your end in relations to men being from Mars and women from Venus and other differences between?

 

[Big Dumb Bitch]

The man vs bear thing isn't even really a debate tbh. Anyone who doesn't understand why a woman would rather be in the woods with a bear than some random man she's never met is absolutely part of the problem and they're the ones who need to work on recognizing their privilege as a man and what it gets them. Men also need to stop feeling entitled to womens bodies. The reason a lot of men don't get laid or dating is hard for them is because they're probably unlikeable or weird in some way and that's not a womans fault. They also need to work through all their toxic masculine bullshit and stop being so misogynistic and heteronormative.

I lived as a man for 27 years and I've lived as a woman for nearly 4 now and being a man is easy as fuck. 95% of mens problems are self infilicted because they're insecure cowards who are afraid to have feelings lol.

 

[SalsaWood]

The real problem is folks who aren't satisfied with being alone. They're either scared a relationship is the only way they'll get laid, are aging out of finding a long term relationship, or simply starve for validation. The tribalist polarity within society is definitely having an impact across many spectrums, but the perceived need for fairytale romance and/or the social accessorizing of other people's accompaniment is the core issue I think. There's no one side that is more correct or incorrect, the problem is people are pathetic, incensed with their own image, and overly socialized while trying to find someone to actually understand and accept them. They can't even accept themselves for the reality, so of course things are hopeless and frantic. The popular conversation is all about either putting people on, or tearing them from, whatever pedestal of perception. Politics and current events have become the new religion with sects seemingly vying for the most useful idiot to lead the mobs of morons further into discontent. That's why I stay out of this part of the forum 90% of the time. It's a shit way to discuss anything opinion based and causes undue dissonance between people who otherwise have the exact same good intentions, but get drawn into horribly emotional minutia of how to go about it. Don't even get me started on talking to folks, on the internet, who can selectively act like they aren't on the internet where profound data and insight is at their fingertips because they're not winning what they defensively perceive to be a debate. I also don't care if someone is wrong in those discussions, it's just usually not worth feeling like I pissed on their parade. They don't pay my bills, they don't educate me, and they sure as hell don't sleep in my bed. The thoughts and behaviors of other humans don't reflect on me by default in my own mind, I never understood why folks seem to feel that way. I don't care if someone is wrong on the internet past speaking my mind, which I usually don't even feel compelled to bother with.

Everything is now a hot take and/or vapid pageantry online, where everyone socializes primarily anymore, about this or that. This issue is about male or female edgelord attention addicts, with the sex being pretty much irrelevant other than strictly topically, and everyone has to have a side in this crap. If it weren't male and female polarizing it would be blondes and brunettes. It's completely asinine and has screwed up interpersonal association and really opening up to humans for who they are. Thankfully, I don't care personally. If I wanted to make having a girlfriend a priority I would, I don't. My last one dumped me because I didn't care. That's ok, she's probably right. I loved her and she was a wonderful person, we are still friends. Didn't go our way, that's life. Move on. There are definitely tons of good ones out there. Lots of folks deep down are actually really decent and worth knowing intimately, it's all the bullshit they pad their egos and dopamine systems with day in and day out that is the real problem IMO. Of course there are people who are animalistic beyond the simple caveman mentality of Us vs Them, people who never learned the logical imperative of having good morals and healthy thinking, like epicureans, or folks lost in drug addiction, or narcissists in love with themselves- but that's always been the case. I think the current dynamic just allows folks to posture in whatever way they perceive will be most accepted by their cult without having to live it and back it up. It's fake. It's all BS. It's like a movie plot comprised of real people steering emotionally drunk. The internet is not reality, it's not close. I'm not even convinced the majority of comments online are even human anymore. My advice is always to tune it out and focus on what is most important to you. Don't consolidate your emotional energy into fingerbanging your phone and go find someone to give your love to.

 

[soliloquy]

I think one of the issues here is that generally speaking, people are selfish. Doesn't matter if you're man/woman, black/white/brown/etc...just being selfish and putting yourself first. In doing so, you hold onto that idea that only ONE thing can be 'right' and based on reality.

That can quickly fall apart and lead to disappointment when you're wanting someone else to validate your bullshit views, while you are vehemently against their bullshit views because their bullshit views didn't originate from your bullshit induced mind.

But I do wonder if this is the 'West vs East' in regards to Western world being so individualistic and self-serving, where as Eastern is more 'group-mentality and doing things for the betterment of the group/society/family/culture/religion' etc

 

[Drew]

The man vs bear thing isn't even really a debate tbh. Anyone who doesn't understand why a woman would rather be in the woods with a bear than some random man she's never met is absolutely part of the problem and they're the ones who need to work on recognizing their privilege as a man and what it gets them.

Honestly, this whole thing is stupid, because, yes, OBVIOUSLY the man is the bigger risk.

I'm a guy, and I've spent a fair amount of time hiking solo over the years. I am 100% more uncomfortable running into a woman alone in the woods than I am about running into a bear. Both of them I can reasonably count on to be more afraid of me than I am of it, but the bear is able to just run away because there's no social pressure on it. The woman, I have to deal with how to pass them on the trail or get around them or whatever, making it VERY clear that I'm not trying to "approach" them in anything but a literal "we're walking past each other" sense, and that my body language is being very clear that I have no intentions beyond saying a polite "hi" in passing and going on with my hike and leaving them alone.

And yes, I HAVE run into bears out alone in the woods hiking, or on a bike.

I really struggle to understand why this is so controversial, and more so how anyone who's given it ANY thought at all, who does spend time alone in the woods, is surprised by this.

 

[Xaios]

I'm a guy, and I've spent a fair amount of time hiking solo over the years. I am 100% more uncomfortable running into a woman alone in the woods than I am about running into a bear. Both of them I can reasonably count on to be more afraid of me than I am of it, but the bear is able to just run away because there's no social pressure on it. The woman, I have to deal with how to pass them on the trail or get around them or whatever, making it VERY clear that I'm not trying to "approach" them in anything but a literal "we're walking past each other" sense, and that my body language is being very clear that I have no intentions beyond saying a polite "hi" in passing and going on with my hike and leaving them alone.

This is from a comedy bit, but it absolutely has kernels of the unfortunate truth of this kind of situation.



And yeah, as a man, seeing how a lot of other men reacted like giant, psychotically unhinged babies over the whole Bear vs. Man thing, is it any wonder that a lot of women chose "bear"?

 

[soliloquy]

If people are thinking this "the bear vs man" thing is new, let me remind you, that summer of 2023 saw a movie called "Barbie" which caused many breakups due to women finding their boyfriend/friend/partner/significant other etc was an insecure jerk. That movie also made many men lose their shit, because, how dare Ken be treated like they expect women to be treated.

Further back, we had people like Andrew Tate, Musk, Jordan Peterson doing their shit.

Then further back, we had #metoo.

Saudi Arabia recently let women drive...

Further back, women fighting to be included in the work force; having rights; being treated as humans; etc.

This is nothing new, this doesn't warrant a surprise to anyone. I'm just surprised peoples egos are continuing to get hurt when shit like this hits the fan, as it happens rather frequently.

 

[narad]

I'm looking for the exactly what question you're asking. Have we noticed that men and women are treated differently, in different aspects of society, and that the way they are treated differently changes over time?

 

[Randy]

I'm looking for the exactly what question you're asking. Have we noticed that men and women are treated differently, in different aspects of society, and that the way they are treated differently changes over time?

I'm not sure theres a concise question/answer here, but I think the idea is that 'Man vs Bear' is the continuation of previous exposés on toxic male behavior. And that every time there's a "but both sides" when really it's mostly just men being creepy shits.

If I'm reading the OPs vibe correctly.

 

[narad]

I'm not sure theres a concise question/answer here, but I think the idea is that 'Man vs Bear' is the continuation of previous exposés on toxic male behavior. And that every time there's a "but both sides" when really it's mostly just men being creepy shits.

If I'm reading the OPs vibe correctly.

Yea, but we're never not going to have a "but both sides" -- I mean Andrew Tate has an absurd amount of followers. But what are the over-arching trends? I would say moving towards equality, and a move towards general sympathy and awareness. I remember some years ago a girl released a video documenting her experience walking through like NYC. I think that was an eye-opener for a lot of people, including myself, which is not changing the narrative but the extent to which just walking around brought unwanted attention and super creepy advances was a bit shocking. But outside of the DrewH's of the world, the idea of toxic masculinity has gained a broader acceptance basically everywhere as far as I can see.

But as to OP's thing:

More complicated, still, our education systems seem to not be working either. Women are outpacing men in just about every subject they are entering. Same goes for work, where if both candidates are on equal footings with same merits, generally speaking, women are doing better in terms of work. Maybe a different educational system is required just to combat the equity vs equality debate?

I don't get this at all. Like what is this issue and what should be improved? Also this is a cartoonish view of a very complex situation. In STEM, we're still struggling to boost women enrollment in courses, so some citation-needed and or more likely context-needed understand here.

 

[Randy]

But outside of the DrewH's of the world, the idea of toxic masculinity has gained a broader acceptance basically everywhere as far as I can see.

I think you hear more of the right answers but I'm not sure the underlying creepiness has subsided. A *lot* of guys fake wokeness as a "m'ladies" attempt at getting in their pants.

There's some systemic stuff regarding the disparity of "gender roles" but I think theres a portion of the male side of the equation that's pure repressed cavemanism.

 

[wheresthefbomb]

*goes to Jupiter, gets more stupider*

I think you hear more of the right answers but I'm not sure the underlying creepiness has subsided. A *lot* of guys fake wokeness as a "m'ladies" attempt at getting in their pants.

Music scenes are full of this shit. There's a musician around here who is incredibly dangerous, physically abusive, has physically and sexaully assaulted numerous people, has attempted in earnest to kill at least one person, and while he's had to keep a lower profile than before all this came to a head, he still plays shows and often when I say something about it people shrug it off and say shit like "well I don't have any beef with him." His social media presence took a hard turn from apathetic-edgy-metal-dude to conspicuously-just-left-of-established-progressive, right around the time this all started coming out. To view his socials you'd think he's "one of the good ones." That's just one guy. There's a laundry list of loathesome fuckboys who fly under the radar because they present a "woke liberal" face and are well connected and good at their instrument. It's a huge part of the reason I've been performing solo for so long. Not only can I not trust these individuals, I can't trust anyone whose ethical compass is corrupt enough to associate with them.

 

[soliloquy]

I'm looking for the exactly what question you're asking. Have we noticed that men and women are treated differently, in different aspects of society, and that the way they are treated differently changes over time?

Exactly as Randy mentioned, there is no one particular question. Just multiple complex issues that are all overlapping one another. Call it being patriarchy as an issue; or men just being creepy; or all our systems need a major overhaul or whatever.

South Korea, for example: women wanting equal pay for equal work; want men to uptake child rearing; want better treatment at home; want better relationships; want equal footing in politics. Men counter this stance as "yes, but we have conscription and you don't. We are justified in our approach and you need to settle down".

Going to Andrew Tate: he has a huge following. Aside from his rape and general views on women, one thing that makes him dangerous is that he isn't 'exactly' wrong. He's just weaponizing our current systems and taking advantage of them. Case in point, a whole ago he said something along the lines of "governments don't care about men" in relation to men committing suicide. He pointed out that take any government internationally, go to their websites, and look up suicide stats. You'll quickly find that statistically speaking, people who are of the black, or LGBTQ2S+, or poverty stricken groups are more likely to commit suicide. But no where does it state that men in those communities are at an even higher chance of commiting suicide. He's quick to point out "they don't care about men". Again, his view isn't exactly wrong. How he approaches it is the issue. How people believe him is a bigger issue. When he is saying that governments need to care about men and "more care should be given to men" as they retaliate saying no, it's women that need the support...that is both sides not seeing eye to eye. Kind of similar to "all lives matter vs black lives matter" debate.

 

[narad]

Case in point, a whole ago he said something along the lines of "governments don't care about men" in relation to men committing suicide. He pointed out that take any government internationally, go to their websites, and look up suicide stats. You'll quickly find that statistically speaking, people who are of the black, or LGBTQ2S+, or poverty stricken groups are more likely to commit suicide. But no where does it state that men in those communities are at an even higher chance of commiting suicide.

 

[Randy]

Nature or nurture, by the time you reach adulthood you're a bundle of toxic traits. Whatever it may be. Anger, greed, jealousy, anxiety, sexual frustrations, etc. Everyone's got at least one of 'em.

I think the valuable exercise in actually "waking up" is confronting your toxic traits and resolving them, rather than excusing them. Even if you don't defeat them, you need to at least recognize they're toxic and learn to exercise self control.

Essentially all pro-right, anti-women or anti-LGBTQ arguments originate from the inability of men to control the ego. Fear of woman rejecting his seed, fear of women being sexually liberated, fear of facing the grey areas of their own sexuality, etc.

So I don't really think parroting some "woke" call-and-response script means someone has actually adopted being "awake". Maybe somewhere in the far future we're deprogrammed from being toxic to begin with, but in the meantime the best you can ask for is learning to exercise restraint and let your animalistic tendencies run wild.

 

[DrewH]

YBut outside of the DrewH's of the world, the idea of toxic masculinity has gained a broader acceptance basically everywhere as far as I can see

You could try to exercise at least a little maturity and not drag my name into other threads.

You don't know me. It would probably surprise you that most of my good friends are females. Heck, I have ex girlfriends from college days who are happily married now with teenagers that I still message back and forth with at least once every week or 2. You don't have those kind of long lasting relationships if you are an asshole. The problem with you all is it's either 0 or 100. Anyone moderate shows up in the US politics thread and they are a fascist. Show any masculinity or just basic common sense when it comes to the sexes and you are suddenly a misogynist who beats on his girl. Seeing the pattern here?This is why there is a strong and getting stronger anti-left movement in the world. It's like tip toeing around landmines with you people.

Let me clue you and others into something. Women like masculinity, a lot. Obviously not to the point of misogyny or abuse. But, they like a man's man. Someone they can feel comfortable knowing they are protected by. Basic human nature.

As for the topic of this thread, what a joke. Totally agenda driven. Someone seeking validation from others about their own misguided feelings about men. Most men are pretty good natured. Most women are too. Both sexes have their fair share of real duds. For every man that has actual toxic masculinity, there is a woman that is toxically manipulative or a compulsive liar or has ulterior motives.

As for women being treated as objects, look at social media. It's nothing but women portraying themselves as sexual objects. You can't have it both ways. You can't portray yourself as an object and then not expect the assholes to treat you like one.

 

[CanserDYI]

You could try to exercise at least a little maturity and not drag my name into other threads.

You don't know me. It would probably surprise you that most of my good friends are females. Heck, I have ex girlfriends from college days who are happily married now with teenagers that I still message back and forth with at least once every week or 2. You don't have those kind of long lasting relationships if you are an asshole. The problem with you all is it's either 0 or 100. Anyone moderate shows up in the US politics thread and they are a fascist. Show any masculinity or just basic common sense when it comes to the sexes and you are suddenly a misogynist who beats on his girl. Seeing the pattern here?This is why there is a strong and getting stronger anti-left movement in the world. It's like tip toeing around landmines with you people.

Let me clue you and others into something. Women like masculinity, a lot. Obviously not to the point of misogyny or abuse. But, they like a man's man. Someone they can feel comfortable knowing they are protected by. Basic human nature.

As for the topic of this thread, what a joke. Totally agenda driven. Someone seeking validation from others about their own misguided feelings about men. Most men are pretty good natured. Most women are too. Both sexes have their fair share of real duds. For every man that has actual toxic masculinity, there is a woman that is toxically manipulative or a compulsive liar or has ulterior motives.

As for women being treated as objects, look at social media. It's nothing but women portraying themselves as sexual objects. You can't have it both ways. You can't portray yourself as an object and then not expect the assholes to treat you like one.

Stop talking for all women, it's really weird, dude. Not gonna lie, I had my wife read this with no context of your history and she couldn't even get past your literal first paragraph where you pull the classic "I have a black/gay/woman friends, I cant be racist/homophobic/sexist", and then immediately use the term "females", it's like playing incel/right wing bingo with you.

And on top of that, OF COURSE you'd find this topic a joke. It's literally designed to find people like you

 

[narad]

You could try to exercise at least a little maturity and not drag my name into other threads.

You don't know me.

You're right, I got a little carried away there. I shouldn't just assume what your take would be on these issues.

It would probably surprise you that most of my good friends are females. Heck, I have ex girlfriends from college days who are happily married now with teenagers that I still message back and forth with at least once every week or 2. You don't have those kind of long lasting relationships if you are an asshole. The problem with you all is it's either 0 or 100. Anyone moderate shows up in the US politics thread and they are a fascist. Show any masculinity or just basic common sense when it comes to the sexes and you are suddenly a misogynist who beats on his girl. Seeing the pattern here?This is why there is a strong and getting stronger anti-left movement in the world. It's like tip toeing around landmines with you people.

Let me clue you and others into something. Women like masculinity, a lot. Obviously not to the point of misogyny or abuse. But, they like a man's man. Someone they can feel comfortable knowing they are protected by. Basic human nature.

As for the topic of this thread, what a joke. Totally agenda driven. Someone seeking validation from others about their own misguided feelings about men. Most men are pretty good natured. Most women are too. Both sexes have their fair share of real duds. For every man that has actual toxic masculinity, there is a woman that is toxically manipulative or a compulsive liar or has ulterior motives.

As for women being treated as objects, look at social media. It's nothing but women portraying themselves as sexual objects. You can't have it both ways. You can't portray yourself as an object and then not expect the assholes to treat you like one.

Oh wait nope, there it is. That would be "BINGO" on the guess your comments game.

 

[DrewH]

Stop talking for all women, it's really weird, dude. Not gonna lie, I had my wife read this with no context of your history and she couldn't even get past your literal first paragraph where you pull the classic "I have a black/gay/woman friends, I cant be racist/homophobic/sexist", and then immediately use the term "females", it's like playing incel/right wing bingo with you.

And on top of that, OF COURSE you'd find this topic a joke. It's literally designed to find people like you

You had your wife read it? Thats really fucking creepy dude. Does she wipe your ass for you too???? lol

 

[CanserDYI]

You had your wife read it? Thats really fucking creepy dude. Does she wipe your ass for you too???? lol

Nah, my wife and I love each other and hang out, constantly. I laughed at your post and handed my wife my phone so she could laugh