The Social Dilema

[Adieu]

That’s what I understood, maybe I expressed myself wrong.

You guys are putting the blame on the advertisement for making an alcoholic relapse. No, the blame is on the alcoholic for letting himself use it as an excuse.

It’s the same debate about guns. I’m Canadian, I think guns are stupid and shouldn’t be in civilian hands, but I’m rational enough to say that “guns don’t kill people, idiots with guns kill people”. If people are allowed to own guns for their own safety, don’t put the blame on guns for the percentage of idiots that use them wrong.

Advertisement is to sell products and services, not make a diabetic or alcoholic deteriorate their own condition, or whatever the case may be. It’s called self-control, it’s something you learn by yourself, no one will teach it to you.

This is more of a case of a gun dealer setting up a stand in front of the free mental health clinic....

 

[Kobalt]

This is more of a case of a gun dealer setting up a stand in front of the free mental health clinic....

I think that’s an extreme way of thinking...

 

[Seabeast2000]

Social media isn't a firehose of manipulation and mental illness. It is all run by sage overseers drawing from full lives' experience and with your best interest.

 

[Adieu]

Social media isn't a firehose of manipulation and mental illness. It is all run by sage overseers drawing from full lives' experience and with your best interest.

Yup yup the Prophet Jesus Llama, the Tooth Fairy, and the rebranded totem now known as the Easter Bunny

They all work together to send you ads, pron, and cat videos. For the betterment of mankind~!

 

[Hollowway]

For me, the sucky thing is the algorithms aren't yet sophisticated enough to be hugely useful, but at the same time they're useful enough to be annoying. One of the nice things about generic ads is you might learn a thing or two, as you don't already know about that product/service. And super useful algorithms would be able to know I want to buy a Fryette D60, and find one for me to buy. Instead, I'm getting ads for crap I don't want, but is in the same genre as things I am interested in.

I AM nervous about how much tracking these things do in general, and what use it would be for our government to have it. Not to devolve this into a political discussion, but if our country keeps going the way it is, with fascist and totalitarian overtones, then I worry about things like 23 and me, FB, etc. having so much of my life in there.

 

[TedEH]

You guys are putting the blame on the advertisement for making an alcoholic relapse.

It's not about blame, it's about the technology having no sense of boundaries. If you had an alcoholic friend, you might avoid drinking beer in their presence. It's not your fault that they have a drinking problem, but you'd be a bit of an ass to flaunt your freedom to drink in front of them, and you'd be a bit responsible if that behaviour prompted them to relapse. The ads are the same idea, except that they have no real oversight, understanding, sense or morals, etc behind their uses of what it gleans from your usage patterns.

The priority is to create value for advertisers - without any mechanism to measure the real-world impact on what happens when you parrot people's online behaviour back at them. Maybe it enriches some people's lives. Maybe it bombards people with things that they aren't prepared for.

You're right, there's some level of individual responsibility involved - but - there's also zero moral consideration behind the use of people's data where there should be. Both of those things can be true at the same time.

I deleted the FB app from my phone cause it’s nothing but Covid & Trump posts lately, i found my self constantly unfollowing so many people and pages. I don’t miss it at all.

I deleted the fb app from my phone, for a lot of the same reasons, a few months ago. While I don't miss it in a day-to-day sense, I've noticed that I'm sort of out of the loop with some of what's going on now. I find myself hearing things from the people I talk to regularly and going "oh, I had no idea that x thing happened weeks ago".

 

[c7spheres]

I quit Facebook going on 3 years ago this New Years, and while I know I'm at my best, I've legitimately lost contact with everyone I used to talk to and it showed how thin friendships got through the ability to just digitally check in and not need to actually catch up with anyone about their life.

It has it's pros and cons

It's so true. People that actually care about you will think to themseleves "Hey, what happened to so and so? I think I'll call or go to their house and check on them because I actually value their existance as a human being and care about them. I genuinely care about how they're doing."
-
- This site's format is light years better than Facebook's. In fact I'd call it as ideal as possible for how to organize a social media website.

- The time of B.C. was so much better (before cellular, before computers) back then freindships were more genuine and even enemys got along and showed more respect to each other, imo. People nowadays (not all people) are programmed clone-drones. Very few innovators and a lot of immitators. And lot's of whining babies.

- If I was rich I wouldn't be a dick, but with one exception. I'd go around just slapping people's phones out of their hands. The people that can't get the hell off or out of them. Why ever go anywhere if you never put your phone away? Maybe I'll start doing it anyways. What are they gonna do? This should be a new movement. Screw burning everyone's buildings down, just start destrying everyone's phone!

- End of rant.

 

[TedEH]

"Hey, what happened to so and so? I think I'll call or go to their house and check on them because I actually value their existance as a human being and care about them. I genuinely care about how they're doing."

I had someone accuse me of stopping my use of facebook because I was "mad at them".

.....? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Kobalt]

It's not about blame, it's about the technology having no sense of boundaries. If you had an alcoholic friend, you might avoid drinking beer in their presence. It's not your fault that they have a drinking problem, but you'd be a bit of an ass to flaunt your freedom to drink in front of them, and you'd be a bit responsible if that behaviour prompted them to relapse. The ads are the same idea, except that they have no real oversight, understanding, sense or morals, etc behind their uses of what it gleans from your usage

Hmmm I wonder... Would I also be a bit of an ass if I turned on the TV on the sports channel?

I wonder how a recovering alcoholic fares trying to enjoy a hockey game, or a NASCAR race...

 

[StevenC]

Hmmm I wonder... Would I also be a bit of an ass if I turned on the TV on the sports channel?

I wonder how a recovering alcoholic fares trying to enjoy a hockey game, or a NASCAR race...

You're doing this on purpose right?

How can it not be blindingly obvious the point is about control?

 

[Kobalt]

You're doing this on purpose right?

How can it not be blindingly obvious the point is about control?

I understand the point man, I’m just saying it’s grossly exaggerated.

 

[narad]

It's not about blame, it's about the technology having no sense of boundaries. If you had an alcoholic friend, you might avoid drinking beer in their presence. It's not your fault that they have a drinking problem, but you'd be a bit of an ass to flaunt your freedom to drink in front of them, and you'd be a bit responsible if that behaviour prompted them to relapse. The ads are the same idea, except that they have no real oversight, understanding, sense or morals, etc behind their uses of what it gleans from your usage patterns.

So what would you say about Facebook's ability to turn off alcohol advertisement?

 

[TedEH]

So what would you say about Facebook's ability to turn off alcohol advertisement?

I didn't know that was an option, but if it is, then that's good. Why would I have any problem with that? Facebook is not the only ad provider though. I think the biggest one is Google. Does google have that option?

That's still all of one option to help one group of people on one website. People don't generally have that much control over the ads they see (or why), outside of just controlling their behaviour online. There are more kinds of addicts than alcoholics. There are other things that can be harmful for people to see frequently on the internet.

A good one is YouTube recommendations. It's great at making loose associations and sending people down rabbits holes that can pretty drastically influence people. I don't think it's any secret that this is intentional.

Has anyone studied anything about the effects of parroting people's online behaviour back to them as ads? Legit question.

 

[TedEH]

Would I also be a bit of an ass if I turned on the TV on the sports channel?

If you did it knowingly, at their house, with the intent to flaunt beer brands in front of them, then yes. This isn't rocket science.

 

[c7spheres]

What's crazy to me is ad's apparently actually work on people. I don't think I've ever watched any ad and it actually made me want to buy something. Usually it's word of mouth or forums like this that make me want stuff, not the company or ad's themselves. I always try to research and make a good decision before buying anything. I've never seen a Taco Bell commercial and suddenly wanted Taco Bell and when I saw Suzanne Summers doing the Thigh Master commercial I didn't want a Thigh Master, I wanted her thighs, but those weren't for sale

 

[Adieu]

You're doing this on purpose right?

How can it not be blindingly obvious the point is about control?

Maybe there IS no Kobalt

Maybe it's an automated point defense bot from Amazon

 

[narad]

I didn't know that was an option, but if it is, then that's good. Why would I have any problem with that? Facebook is not the only ad provider though. I think the biggest one is Google. Does google have that option?

No, but there are still restrictions on alcohol ads, such that they don't show up with terms/sites related to alcohol abuse recovery, or underage people, or any scenario that would violate local laws. There are similar policies in place for the other types of behavior.

So Google doesn't know you are a recovering alcoholic, and maybe you can be one and still wind up seeing an advertisement. But Google knows that you're visiting alcoholics anonymous, and in that instance, does not show alcohol-related ads. Or Google knows that you are 12, and does not show you those ads.

This is of course a far cry of companies "knowing" that you are prone to some bad behavior you're trying to stop, and targetting you specifically, which is basically the premise of a few posters in this thread.

 

[Adieu]

What's crazy to me is ad's apparently actually work on people. I don't think I've ever watched any ad and it actually made me want to buy something. Usually it's word of mouth or forums like this that make me want stuff, not the company or ad's themselves. I always try to research and make a good decision before buying anything. I've never seen a Taco Bell commercial and suddenly wanted Taco Bell and when I saw Suzanne Summers doing the Thigh Master commercial I didn't want a Thigh Master, I wanted her thighs, but those weren't for sale

Have you ever bought anything Marshall, Fender, Gibson, or ESP?

Is your credit card REALLY just some rando card from the closest brick and mortar bank, and not something that gives you 5% back either on gas, cotsco, or amazon??


And what, you've never watched a youtube video???

 

[Wuuthrad]

You are blaming someone’s disease on advertisement? Sorry but, if you have a problem, you should blame yourself, not the world for making those things available to you (and others who enjoy them in healthy ways). Just saying...

IKR? And what about those poor tobacco companies, they’re going to have to stop bikini models giving away Cancer sticks to poor Asian kids pretty soon, and selling cigarettes altogether!

They’ve already suffered far too much having to change their ad claims that cigarettes are so good for your health! Doesn’t anyone have a (diseased) heart?

...omg what an affront to Capitalist Virtue...
Poor corporations...


Interestingly, I’m reading a lot of victim blaming here. Where did anyone get the idea that it’s an addicts fault for being an addict?

That idea was implanted in your brain, by an advertiser.

Medical sciences show that addiction is a disease- it’s not a choice.

Some countries in the world treat homeless addicts like this:

Give them free housing and work, and pay them with beer. Or free needle exchanges and ibogaine treatment to treat and cure addiction.

Certainly a much better idea than locking up junkies ODing on Heroin in a cell with 20 other dudes, some of whom aren’t even criminals but are victims of racial bias, and detoxing naked in a cold shower for 12+ hours...

Or creating a society of opioid addicts by illegally prescribing them! Should we blame the people who went in with a minor injury and ended up ruining their lives because they were supposed to know better?

These opioid drugs are so addictive that anyone becomes an addict- doesn’t even matter if you fit the profile!


Rights to privacy are a fundamental right of this Democracy, the legality of which is only relevant when they’re being denied! We are all innocent until proven guilty. ( I find it interesting that proponents of 2nd amendment rights seem oddly fixated on that while forgetting the others.)

The internet has given far too many people the idea that their opinions have any real merit, which also gives them the chutzpah to share their opinions, without actually taking the time to properly form them. I know I do this all the time. I also know when to step back, read, listen and learn.

It’s all about the feelz right ?

 

[Wuuthrad]

Have you ever bought anything Marshall, Fender, Gibson, or ESP?

Is your credit card REALLY just some rando card from the closest brick and mortar bank, and not something that gives you 5% back either on gas, cotsco, or amazon??


And what, you've never watched a youtube video???

I actually enjoy Gibson TV quite a bit. That dude with the Les Paul pool... come on man!

(I think he was bribed by Gibson lawyers to do the episode or he was going to be sued!)

I also get a healthy dose of outrage and gratitude, every time I hear a Neil Young tune or some music with a message used to sell some huge corporate product- I’m like yes!

Anger and outrage, conveniently placed as to pacify my need for action, or independent thought...

After all what would any of us do with all
the free space in our heads where there were no Ad Icons?