Konfyouzd
Return of the Dread-I
Well now I have to see the movie... That's all that means.
Wanted : actual science in the "wood affects tone" debate
- Thread starter Nag
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stevexc
Well-Known Member
100% agreed.
It would be nice, however, to see some science done in the direction of finding out what qualities of wood make what differences. I would assume that heavier/dense pieces of wood will have a "darker" tone, and lighter ones would be "brighter". I'm sure there's some kind of quality that will make it somewhat predictable.
Funny thing I've noticed, Gibsons traditionally are made out of "darker sounding" wood and Fenders from "brighter"... which also by sheer coincidence happens to reflect the entirely different pickup choices, seeing as how Gibsons are historically mostly humbucker-equipped, which are known to sound darker and muddier, and Fenders are usually built with brighter single coils... could that be a partial origin to the whole tonewood belief?
Konfyouzd
Return of the Dread-I
That probably might be a significant portion of it. One is also set neck while the other is bolt on. Aren't set necks supposed to give you a "warm tone"? Or is that more marketing hype? I like neckthru's because they look good. 
EDIT: I was TOLD when I started playing neckthru's that they had more sustain, though. After playing a few more I realized that wasn't true when my RG470 sustained longer than some of my neckthru guitars.
EDIT: I was TOLD when I started playing neckthru's that they had more sustain, though. After playing a few more I realized that wasn't true when my RG470 sustained longer than some of my neckthru guitars.
Rap Hat
the:pawn.project
Regardless of whether you think wood tone plays an effect or not, there are other properties that I feel override whatever the differences may be. Namely, the weight and stability of the wood. I choose swamp ash bodies not for the "good bass response and tight mids", but because it's light and holds up well over time. I prefer rosewood fretboards because they don't crack like ebony and are easy to maintain, and multi-ply maple/whatever necks for stability and less risk of warping. I do have a 1 piece rosewood neck on my OAF 8, but that was mostly for feel and looks (and it is pretty susceptible to environment changes).
Think of it this way: all other things considered, would you rather play a 1:30 set with a 13lbs Les Paul or a 7lbs Les Paul?
Think of it this way: all other things considered, would you rather play a 1:30 set with a 13lbs Les Paul or a 7lbs Les Paul?
stevexc
Well-Known Member
Ironically even though I don't believe in tonewoods, I'll usually go with maple over mahogany because if it turns out I'm wrong I'll still sound good.
I guess I'm tonewood agnostic - I'm pretty sure it's not true, but I don't wanna ruin my chances by spitting in its face!
I guess I'm tonewood agnostic - I'm pretty sure it's not true, but I don't wanna ruin my chances by spitting in its face!
just sayin', I got all the answers I wanted
I wanted to know how the wood influences the sound, and I got that answer. The complete science about materials absorbing/accelerating vibrations is something else and I didn't even ask that question.
For me this thread could already be closed
Here's a funny little blindtest.
I used two different guitars :
Skervesen (milvus)
- acoustic sound is very precise, bright, no low-mid resonances.
- bridge pickup is a BKP Sinner (single coil alnico)
Vigier (excalibur)
- acoustic precision is average, dark, nice low-mid resonances.
- bridge pickup is a S. Duncan Custom (humbucker ceramic)
Same strings on both guitars, same tuning, same tension.
So here's how it works : I recorded four samples.
vigier as it is
vigier through the skervesen pickup (so the skerv is plugged, not the vigier)
skervesen as it is
skervesen through the vigier pickup
Playing tonewoods by redstone - picosong
First sample is the vigier, 2nd the skervesen. You can hear the vigier sounds, well, dark and fat.. and the skervesen is bright, precise.. but that could just be the pickups, right ?
Now you tell me what comes next
I used two different guitars :
Skervesen (milvus)
- acoustic sound is very precise, bright, no low-mid resonances.
- bridge pickup is a BKP Sinner (single coil alnico)
Vigier (excalibur)
- acoustic precision is average, dark, nice low-mid resonances.
- bridge pickup is a S. Duncan Custom (humbucker ceramic)
Same strings on both guitars, same tuning, same tension.
So here's how it works : I recorded four samples.
vigier as it is
vigier through the skervesen pickup (so the skerv is plugged, not the vigier)
skervesen as it is
skervesen through the vigier pickup
Playing tonewoods by redstone - picosong
First sample is the vigier, 2nd the skervesen. You can hear the vigier sounds, well, dark and fat.. and the skervesen is bright, precise.. but that could just be the pickups, right ?
Now you tell me what comes next
stevexc
Well-Known Member
^^ Blind tests like this, Rob Chapman's, etc. just serve to reinforce my belief - different guitars sound different from each other. Sometimes they'll fall in line with the established tonewood theory, sometimes they don't.
stevexc
Well-Known Member
Haha to my ear (through my crappy work headset) they all sound pretty close - which also reinforces my OTHER belief that as soon as you've got any gain, wood doesn't make a difference
mnemonic
Custom User Title
I think the difference between different types of wood will be much more noticeable when you're the one playing the guitar, since you have that auditory feedback to what your hands are doing. If you're listening to someone else play, the differences will be minimized.
Ever had a friend play through your guitar/amp and then it sounds somehow different when you play? The way the guitar/amp responds to the way you play will influence how it sounds to you.
Furthermore, Bulb had a pretty good quote on the matter since he has lots of guitars with different woods/construction methods, most of which are loaded with the same pickups; something along the lines of the density of the wood making more of a difference than the actual species. Since some things can be generalized (ie. maple generally denser than mahogany, as a broad example) we tend to infer that maple is brighter than mahogany. This won't always be the case but most of the time it probably is.
Acoustic instruments were around long before electrics, origin of tonewood lies with them.
Ever had a friend play through your guitar/amp and then it sounds somehow different when you play? The way the guitar/amp responds to the way you play will influence how it sounds to you.
Furthermore, Bulb had a pretty good quote on the matter since he has lots of guitars with different woods/construction methods, most of which are loaded with the same pickups; something along the lines of the density of the wood making more of a difference than the actual species. Since some things can be generalized (ie. maple generally denser than mahogany, as a broad example) we tend to infer that maple is brighter than mahogany. This won't always be the case but most of the time it probably is.
Acoustic instruments were around long before electrics, origin of tonewood lies with them.
Konfyouzd
Return of the Dread-I
Do gates and reverb skew the perceived resonant frequencies once amplified? Some of the more modern tones are heavily gated, compressed, etc.
stevexc
Well-Known Member
I should say "the perpetuation of tonewood into electric instruments", but that's still a good point.
No one wants to play ? Ok here's the answer ..
Assuming that only the pickup shapes the tone, then the 3rd sample should be the skervesen through vigier's pickup.
Actually it's the vigier. Even through the skervesen pickup, the vigier still sounds the same.. and similar to its acoustic tone. Same result with the skervesen.
Pickups made no difference there, both are mid-high gain and a bit scooped. Who needs a science study ?
Assuming that only the pickup shapes the tone, then the 3rd sample should be the skervesen through vigier's pickup.
Actually it's the vigier. Even through the skervesen pickup, the vigier still sounds the same.. and similar to its acoustic tone. Same result with the skervesen.
Pickups made no difference there, both are mid-high gain and a bit scooped. Who needs a science study ?
that rob chapman vid is fallacy. Not the same person playing, no signal chain chown, they didn’t even show if the tone knob was all the way up for both guitars.
Look at this (should help those wanting actual science):
no difference neither perceived nor measured What to believe ? I believe that the Chapman video was definetely exaggerated.
What RV350ALSCYTHE said was reasonable though, it doesn’t seem far-fetched at all. What I do believe though, is that electric guitars sound different acoustically. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t play with a lot of volume, and can still hear my guitar acoustically even when it’s plugged into my amp. Maybe that can make a difference for you too Nagash ?
Look at this (should help those wanting actual science):
no difference neither perceived nor measured
What to believe ? I believe that the Chapman video was definetely exaggerated.What RV350ALSCYTHE said was reasonable though, it doesn’t seem far-fetched at all. What I do believe though, is that electric guitars sound different acoustically. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t play with a lot of volume, and can still hear my guitar acoustically even when it’s plugged into my amp. Maybe that can make a difference for you too Nagash ?
leonardo7
Banned
The following is all in my own words from my own experiences, not from anything I have read.
Its more difficult to tell the difference with higher notes. The difference in tone woods becomes more apparent when lower notes are played and IMO when there is more gain. That is why the guys who dont believe in tone wood are rarely guys who are chuggin away on low notes at high gain settings aka metal guys. There is more vibration with thicker strings so thats why its easier to tell the difference in tone woods when playing riffs as opposed to leads. You dont even have to pluck a string though, just bang on the neck or body wood of your guitar and the pickups will pick that up. Pickups dont just pick up the vibration from the strings, they pick up the entire vibration of the entire guitar.
Vibration is a very microscopic sort of thing so to speak. Its very difficult to understand it and dissect it because of its "microscopic" nature, but it does move through stuff and translate differently depending on what it moves through.
Its more difficult to tell the difference with higher notes. The difference in tone woods becomes more apparent when lower notes are played and IMO when there is more gain. That is why the guys who dont believe in tone wood are rarely guys who are chuggin away on low notes at high gain settings aka metal guys. There is more vibration with thicker strings so thats why its easier to tell the difference in tone woods when playing riffs as opposed to leads. You dont even have to pluck a string though, just bang on the neck or body wood of your guitar and the pickups will pick that up. Pickups dont just pick up the vibration from the strings, they pick up the entire vibration of the entire guitar.
Vibration is a very microscopic sort of thing so to speak. Its very difficult to understand it and dissect it because of its "microscopic" nature, but it does move through stuff and translate differently depending on what it moves through.
stevexc
Well-Known Member
Isn't that backwards? Once you've got everything distorted and overdriven and whatever, those tonal differences tend to be washed out and minimized, and you'll find more of the old school blues/classic rock/etc. players on the tonewood side of the camp.
It makes sense that banging the guitar will make a noise, though, it causes the strings to vibrate - which is literally the only thing that the pickups can pick up: vibrating metal.
that rob chapman vid is fallacy. Not the same person playing, no signal chain chown, they didnt even show if the tone knob was all the way up for both guitars.
Look at this (should help those wanting actual science):
no difference neither perceived nor measured
How is that science ? Nothing proves that his guitars sound significantly different when unplugged.
The neck has the biggest impact on the string vibrations and most maple necks sound the same. Most maple-necked strats sound like my vigier. I just proved right above that woods have a significant impact, which is related to the unplugged sound. It's clearly audible.
leonardo7
Banned
If I remove the strings and bang on the body there will be no sound?
stevexc
Well-Known Member
Not anywhere that it counts. Remove the strings, plug it in, hit record and bang on it - there might be a little signal from the bridge rattling but not much else.
Unless we're talking about the acoustic sound, which doesn't quite seem like a valuable discussion when it comes to the tone of electric guitar. I don't think anyone will disagree on the amount of impact the wood has on an acoustic guitar's tone. And of course there'll be a sound when you knock on wood
I didn't have 40 minutes to get through that other vid, is he just trying to say that the pickup is the ONLY thing that matters? I don't know if I agree with that, I think everything will contribute - maybe not entirely noticeably, and then only on raw signal - just that choosing a wood for its tone won't yield any predictable, repeatable results ie. you can't guarantee two different pieces of maple will affect the tone in the same way.
