What's the advantage of ordering a custom shop guitar through a dealer (vs direct)?

[Hollowway]

So, if anyone follows Chondro Guitars on FB, you've likely seen that he closed his physical location, and moved to online-only. Apparently, all of the companies he works with are fine with that arrangement, but ESP canceled all of his custom shop orders, and cut ties with him, since he no longer has a store front. There was a huge dust up (read: angry customers emailed ESP) and now ESP will work with each customer directly, but Chondro needs to fully refund the deposits to each customer, and ESP will work with them directly to come up with a solution.

I didn't have a guitar on order with Chondro, but I have ordered from dealers before. I ordered a custom BRJ (pre Black Friday) from Nick at The Axe Palace. When the order dragged on and on beyond the due date, and it became clear what was happening with BRJ orders in general, I reached out to Nick to see if I could get a refund, or stop the order, etc. He said that it was between me and BRJ, and there was nothing he could do.

I later did a couple of the Ibanez runs through Nick. I got one of the unclaimed Rhodonite Pink 7s he did with Ibanez, and when I received it I noticed that the headstock color was way different than the body color (the headstock was a way redder colored pink). I asked Nick, and he said they all came like that, but that it couldn't be returned to Ibanez, because Ibanez said that it was within spec. So I ended up exchanging it for completely different guitar he had in stock.

So, now I'm wondering: Why would anyone order a custom from a dealer, as opposed to a company directly? As far as I know, you can order from the bigger companies direct, and do not need to use a dealer. I would have assumed you'd have more protection from a dealer (from something going wrong), but apparently it's the opposite. If you pay a dealer, they keep the money until the guitar comes in. So if anything happens to the dealer, you don't get the guitar. And, it seems that dealers have no more pull with the company than any individual client would. If the dealer has no more pull with the company than I do, is the one holding my money during the whole build process, and is only another possible break in the chain, then what's the point? I've got to be missing something here, but it seems in all three examples I listed above the dealer had no pull, and the relationship was still between the customer and the company, with the dealer kind of just in the middle holding the money?

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Sounds like you need to go through a different dealer moving forward.

I've ordered a few guitars through Matt's Music, and while there was a couple very minor issues with one order, Matt's was incredibly helpful and cool. It obviously wasn't a BRJ size issue, but it was nice having the dealer pretty much facilitate the whole process. I've worked with DGCL too, and they're also an absolute pleasure. Fret Nation is another dealer that's made the process nice and smooth.

Granted, some manufacturers can be weird and difficult, and I've been in the dealer's shoes having to deal with some, but that's the whole point of going through a dealer.

As for who you can and cannot order through, it depends. Some will credit the nearest dealer and go direct, some won't even pick up the phone unless you're a dealer, and a bunch in between.

 

[narad]

I thought the purpose of the dealer is that they stock these things at a store and you go to the store and try these things out. As things become more online, honestly, what's the point?

And what are the markups like? When I previously saw Mayones dealer cost it was something like 60%. This is a lot of overhead for sending some order sheets and then not fixing any problems when things go wrong. I'm very curious what ESP dealer cost is and if it's similarly ridiculous.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I thought the purpose of the dealer is that they stock these things at a store and you go to the store and try these things out. As things become more online, honestly, what's the point?

And what are the markups like? When I previously saw Mayones dealer cost it was something like 60%. This is a lot of overhead for sending some order sheets and then not fixing any problems when things go wrong. I'm very curious what ESP dealer cost is and if it's similarly ridiculous.

The idea is that better dealers will build a relationship with the brand and be able to get issues taken care of as painlessly as possible for the customer.

A lot of it comes down to experience. Dealers who are constantly putting in orders with brands will usually have a better handle on available options, build times, feasibility of special requests, pricing, builder's actual capabilities, etc. They'll also usually have some build slots in process to basically jump the queue.

A good dealer should also take on some of the risk if something catastrophic happens. Writing off a deposit every blue moon, etc.

 

[narad]

The idea is that better dealers will build a relationship with the brand and be able to get issues taken care of as painlessly as possible for the customer.

A lot of it comes down to experience. Dealers who are constantly putting in orders with brands will usually have a better handle on available options, build times, feasibility of special requests, pricing, builder's actual capabilities, etc. They'll also usually have some build slots in process to basically jump the queue.

A good dealer should also take on some of the risk if something catastrophic happens. Writing off a deposit every blue moon, etc.

If all that happens, great. Doesn't seem like the case lately. Just had a long chat last week with a guy who ordered a new ESP SV and it came with what appear to be pearloid inlays instead of MoP. Even though he had tried to check this before purchase with the dealer, which is far more than I would do given that they always have MoP, he was basically given no options apart from a discount on future orders. And we're talking like $5k guitars at this point.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

If all that happens, great. Doesn't seem like the case lately. Just had a long chat last week with a guy who ordered a new ESP SV and it came with what appear to be pearloid inlays instead of MoP. Even though he had tried to check this before purchase with the dealer, which is far more than I would do given that they always have MoP, he was basically given no options apart from a discount on future orders. And we're talking like $5k guitars at this point.

Which dealer? Did it have a build sheet? No returns? International sale? Did ESP confirm they're not MoP?

Not really enough info to draw much of an opinion.

Mistakes happen, and sometimes the details of the sale make things difficult to easily fix. But if it was like Sweetwater to a guy stateside, then yeah, boo on them.

 

[Hollowway]

I thought the purpose of the dealer is that they stock these things at a store and you go to the store and try these things out. As things become more online, honestly, what's the point?

And what are the markups like? When I previously saw Mayones dealer cost it was something like 60%. This is a lot of overhead for sending some order sheets and then not fixing any problems when things go wrong. I'm very curious what ESP dealer cost is and if it's similarly ridiculous.

Yeah, if a dealer has something in stock, that would be a perfect use case. But yeah, if I have to order something anyway, and can’t try it out, I’m not sure why I’d want to add that additional layer of risk and potential mistake. I guess it would come down to how big the dealer is, and how deep their pockets are. But the single-shop dealers don’t seem to have the ability to absorb mistakes or the clout to get things fixed at the company level.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Yeah, if a dealer has something in stock, that would be a perfect use case. But yeah, if I have to order something anyway, and can’t try it out, I’m not sure why I’d want to add that additional layer of risk and potential mistake. I guess it would come down to how big the dealer is, and how deep their pockets are. But the single-shop dealers don’t seem to have the ability to absorb mistakes or the clout to get things fixed at the company level.

Not all dealers are created equal, and just because some have a decent social media presence/participation, doesn't really mean dick.

Go for the biggest dealer for the particular brand you're looking to buy. In 90% of cases that's the way to go.

There's also nothing wrong with shopping around.

 

[narad]

Which dealer? Did it have a build sheet? No returns? International sale? Did ESP confirm they're not MoP?

Not really enough info to draw much of an opinion.

Mistakes happen, and sometimes the details of the sale make things difficult to easily fix. But if it was like Sweetwater to a guy stateside, then yeah, boo on them.

Also Axe Palace IIRC. Of course I'm just relaying the info, but the guy does seem stuck with the guitar last I saw, and if that's really how things are, then again I have to ask why the dealer is really a necessary role?

Though dealing with ESP directly is also a pain in the ass. Some friends have made comments suggesting I'm so lucky to have ESP locally. Man, I dread going in there. I like the guys but it's like standing around for never less than an hour to talk about some problem with the tiniest detail. The latest hold up was because I asked for a refinish in an existing finish, "trans black cherry", six months ago, and now the finish guys are asking for clarification because they don't have a finish with that name. Only "see-through black cherry". I traveled 45 minutes to get there to discuss it.

Take away: custom guitars suck lol

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Also Axe Palace IIRC. Of course I'm just relaying the info, but the guy does seem stuck with the guitar last I saw, and if that's really how things are, then again I have to ask why the dealer is really a necessary role?

Though dealing with ESP directly is also a pain in the ass. Some friends have made comments suggesting I'm so lucky to have ESP locally. Man, I dread going in there. I like the guys but it's like standing around for never less than an hour to talk about some problem with the tiniest detail. The latest hold up was because I asked for a refinish in an existing finish, "trans black cherry", six months ago, and now the finish guys are asking for clarification because they don't have a finish with that name. Only "see-through black cherry". I traveled 45 minutes to get there to discuss it.

Take away: custom guitars suck lol

ESP just seems really difficult in general.

If the question is "why do dealers exist", it's because manufacturers just don't want to be global front end for every transaction. If the question is "what's in it for customers", it gets a little murky as almost every builder has a different way they handle things and it can be very dependent on the shop itself.

For the record, I think most dealers are fairly useless. They punch up the sheet they have in some pdf and just play telephone and really don't add much. Which is why some manufacturers limit custom shop access to only certain dealers.

Like in a perfect world you'd explain to your dealer what you want, then they make it happen. So when you run into a small detail like "see-through vs. transparent" you don't have to do anything other than chuckle with your sales guy who took care of it.

From my own experiences, small shops are better direct, larger operations usually benefit from a good dealer.

 

[M3CHK1LLA]

i thought you get a better prices through a dealer...especially if its a run where i.e. ibanez builds 50-100 pcs spreading the tooling/parts/material costs over those guitars.

 

[Andromalia]

A dealer is also a good option when you are, like in my case, in an economic region where buying outside means more bureaucratic hassle. The dealer I pay, I pay in € all included, and he deals with customs, change rates, the UPS guy etc. That's why I buy from a dealer, to specifically just have to go and pickup the guitar at the shop. The only time I went direct was with Amfisound because they were a) too small to have dealers, b) Finland is in the EU.
I'd never, ever even dream of attempting to do something direct with ESP, there is a perfectly good dealer in Paris available.

 

[Yul Brynner]

I went through the music zoo for a custom order Gibson V. It was supposed to be as close in spec to a 71 medallion as they could make. So basically a cherry 70s V like the run of actual 70s reissue Vs they put out from around 2013-2016 but with double ring Klusons instead of diecast Schallers.

I was very meticulous and detailed in my instructions. What arrived was the result of an obvious breakdown in communication somewhere. I saved my emails with my specifications and the music zoo refunded my money because it was so far off agreed specs. But they refused to put in another order for what I wanted.

 

[Hollowway]

i thought you get a better prices through a dealer...especially if its a run where i.e. ibanez builds 50-100 pcs spreading the tooling/parts/material costs over those guitars.

Yeah, I'm sure if you do a small batch, the dealer is the only way to go. But, it still brings up the question of who is responsible if it's not right. I see a lot of dealers saying it's the larger company that is at fault, which is often the case, but then you have no recourse, because you didn't deal directly with the larger company. Your only hope is that the smaller dealer gives you a refund, and if they say they're just a conduit, then you're stuck.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Yeah, I'm sure if you do a small batch, the dealer is the only way to go. But, it still brings up the question of who is responsible if it's not right. I see a lot of dealers saying it's the larger company that is at fault, which is often the case, but then you have no recourse, because you didn't deal directly with the larger company. Your only hope is that the smaller dealer gives you a refund, and if they say they're just a conduit, then you're stuck.

You always have recourse, it's just most folks just give up.

You also have to temper expectations based on the product.

Ibanez was never going to refinish your guitar, too complex a situation, and since it was a limited run they couldn't swap it out. So the only option is a return. If the dealer didn't want to facilitate, you tell your bank you were shipped something either defective or not as described and reverse the transaction. So yeah, sucks you're out a guitar, but you're not stuck either.

I won't comment on the BRJ/AP situation for "reasons."

Remember: the ball is always in your court, you just can't give up. Even if for some reason the bank isn't cooperative at first there are like hundreds of reps. Hang up and call again.

Also, what @M3CHK1LLA is talking about is paying retail direct vs. MAP at a dealer, which you can still technically do, but most make it difficult.

 

[Hollowway]

You always have recourse, it's just most folks just give up.

You also have to temper expectations based on the product.

Ibanez was never going to refinish your guitar, too complex a situation, and since it was a limited run they couldn't swap it out. So the only option is a return. If the dealer didn't want to facilitate, you tell your bank you were shipped something either defective or not as described and reverse the transaction. So yeah, sucks you're out a guitar, but you're not stuck either.

I won't comment on the BRJ/AP situation for "reasons."

Remember: the ball is always in your court, you just can't give up. Even if for some reason the bank isn't cooperative at first there are like hundreds of reps. Hang up and call again.

Also, what @M3CHK1LLA is talking about is paying retail direct vs. MAP at a dealer, which you can still technically do, but most make it difficult.

Yeah, in my situation with the Ibby, it’s not that Nick refused to take it back, but more that there were just a number of players involved. I guess in a situation where the dealer is the only option for a custom, it makes sense. But otherwise I wonder if it’s not more straightforward to deal directly with the larger company.

It’s an academic argument, because I don’t do customs any more. But the Chondro thing got me wondering.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Yeah, in my situation with the Ibby, it’s not that Nick refused to take it back, but more that there were just a number of players involved. I guess in a situation where the dealer is the only option for a custom, it makes sense. But otherwise I wonder if it’s not more straightforward to deal directly with the larger company.

It’s an academic argument, because I don’t do customs any more. But the Chondro thing got me wondering.

I don't see any particular advantage going direct vs. a good dealer.

It's not going to be cheaper, because manufacturers don't undercut retail partners, it's not going to go faster because they're not going to jump the queue on dealers either.

Maybe there would be better communication, but like I said, good dealers should be on top of it.

It's not like you'd even have better options if something goes wrong, if anything removing a tier of responsibility could lead to fewer options.

Would have going direct solved any of your problems? Probably not. Could have going with a different dealer or builder? Maybe.

The takeaway here should be that dealer and manufacturer are both important decisions that shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[Hollowway]

@MaxOfMetal yeah, I think the big picture here is that who you’re dealing with is more important than anything else. There are going to be random things that happen, where reputable dealers/luthiers run into problems. But the bigger issue is choosing someone with little history, few clients, and (unfortunately) low prices.

 

[/wrists]

I'm keeping up with this thread, but a bit confused. I didn't know I could place a custom order through ESP, I thought that was something you HAD to go through a dealer for. I recall that they would not accept my custom order unless I had a dealer initiate the contact.

Regardless, I'm happy that I never spent money on a custom guitar anyways. It's much too expensive and if I'm patient I can get one used that will be sufficient for me.

Also the wait time just seems atrocious for all custom shop.

That being said, the only reason I would buy through a dealer, like Streetwater for instance, is because they would be able to set up mass produced guitars under the specifications I'd like, and you usually can get a hundred bucks or more or have them through in a hardcase with the transaction. They're also able to facilitate a lower price point, ie. for a Caparison.

That's primarily why I would go to a dealer, is if it would make sense and benefit me as the customer.

Otherwise if the option is there to buy direct from a manufacturer, I will always do that...

My dealings with Axe Palace has been lacking, they just don't respond to my email after they tell me to email them a custom guitar order? Also, I'm in California, it doesn't make sense for me to be dealing with some dealer in the East Coast.

DLGC I had a great experience with though, but again, after all that is said and done, I would prefer to go direct through manufacturer.

 

[/wrists]

I went through the music zoo for a custom order Gibson V. It was supposed to be as close in spec to a 71 medallion as they could make. So basically a cherry 70s V like the run of actual 70s reissue Vs they put out from around 2013-2016 but with double ring Klusons instead of diecast Schallers.

I was very meticulous and detailed in my instructions. What arrived was the result of an obvious breakdown in communication somewhere. I saved my emails with my specifications and the music zoo refunded my money because it was so far off agreed specs. But they refused to put in another order for what I wanted.

Punish the customer lol