What's the secret to super clean tone with gain and sustain? (tim henson/polyphia style)

[JediMasterThrash]

A lot of modern tech-prog players (like tim henson/polyphia) have this style of two-hand flinger tapping all over the place, and the notes all ring out super strong, like there's good gain and compression going on. But at the same time, it never distorts, like it's not overdrive-level of gain or compression.

I've been trying to re-create this and find it very hard.

25-some years ago I started playing Satriani's Midnight, which is kind of similar concept. For that, I've always just had to basically hammer my fingers on those frets as hard as possible to get the notes to be solid while using regular clean-tone amp settings. I couldn't play it more than 2 or 3 times before my fingers would be sore for 2 days. And of course clean technique, hitting dead center on those frets, which is hard the farther up the neck you go.

But the modern techprog uses double-hand tapping way up to the 27th fret and at least in videos looks relatively effortless like they aren't hammering with all their might. IT's basically impossible to hit those upper frets that clean when your finger is the width of two frets.

So I'm assuming there's just some gear tech involved.

I can add extra gain and compression to the clean channel and get those notes to pop up the upper frets pretty well, but lower notes tend to have some obvious "hair" or OD going on, it's not that clean-tone, and if you play more than one note at a time you definitely hear some distortion vs. a chord.

Either the secret is a ton of post processing with axefx and a ton of chained pedla/compression/synth effects,

Or the secret might be in the pickup, maybe just using the fishman fluence tim henson signature is all you need.

 

[ArtDecade]

Compression.

 

[tedtan]

Yeah, if you want compression, use a compressor rather than gain.

 

[ArtDecade]

A solid state amp or something with zero sag also helps - like a mixing desk with a compressor on the strip.

 

[Crungy]

Does Tim and the other fella mostly use single coil or coil tapped tones?

 

[JediMasterThrash]

compression alone doesn't seem to help, I crank my compressor up to "inf" and it can sustain but still doesn't pump the signal enough to get it to punch and sing. It's gotta gain and soft clip a little bit to get that

 

[JediMasterThrash]

Yes, hence the fluence pups, both have a switch for single-coil mode and says a core tone is using the combined single coils (middle pup selector). Though I've got a couple guitars with coil tap, but never been impressed with single-coil tone. Just feels weak. And if you've got gain, that buzz.

 

[eaeolian]

I suspect it's a lot of compression through a modeler with very high output pickups, super-low action and a super light technique.

 

[MatrixClaw]

compression alone doesn't seem to help, I crank my compressor up to "inf" and it can sustain but still doesn't pump the signal enough to get it to punch and sing. It's gotta gain and soft clip a little bit to get that

What kind of compressor are you using? I imagine they're not using a typical VCA comp. Probably something closer to an 1176 set pretty aggressively, or even a dual comp.

 

[Emperoff]

What kind of compressor are you using? I imagine they're not using a typical VCA comp. Probably something closer to an 1176 set pretty aggressively, or even a dual comp.

They use modellers so they can perfectly have 27 compressors going on.

 

[budda]

Also a good chance the “super clean” tone isnt. Get your signal to breakup then roll volume back a touch.

 

[Screamingdaisy]

Different compressors have different characters. Some are clean and relatively transparent. Some add warmth. If you have a compressor that adds warmth it's not going to give you a transparent sound, which is what it sounds like you're looking for. I'm not a compressor guru, but I believe an 1176 is more on the clean and relatively transparent side (maybe someone can confirm).

For Satch, there's a good chance he had the amp dimed, which even dialled back to be relatively clean is it's own form of compression. You can make it sound more clean by knocking back the highs so there's less sizzle.

Additionally, in a mix a tone with a little bit of grit will sound clean but occupy more space due to the overtones. A pure clean tone will get more buried. It's one of the reasons for the preference of tubes over solid state.

 

[tedtan]

compression alone doesn't seem to help, I crank my compressor up to "inf" and it can sustain but still doesn't pump the signal enough to get it to punch and sing. It's gotta gain and soft clip a little bit to get that

Many clean tones aren’t completely clean; a bit of breakup makes them more interesting. But if you’re getting too much you need to roll something back, either the gain or the volume knob on the guitar.

As for compressors, if you have too slow of an attack, you’ll get sustain without punch. Try something with a faster attack time like a Dynacomp/Ross/Keeley style compressor or an 1176.

 

[SalsaWood]

Rich parents and no friends growing up.

Like others have said it's probably lower output pickups, compression, movement in the dry signal but not so much the wet, and a really good plug in or the right amp. IME Friedman or a Custom Audio Electronics rig for cleans is the best way to go, just under that a JCM800 and maybe if you EQ a Mark # the right way. . Clean tones and cheap amps don't mix in my opinion. I don't know shit about plugins.

IT's basically impossible to hit those upper frets that clean when your finger is the width of two frets.

A large part is how they play, obviously, and FWIW I like their style a lot though I don't prefer their compositions. Keep in mind you don't need to cram your entire fingertip into those high frets. On a fretless you don't worry about the frets, just the termination point of where you put your fingers. As long as you're properly behind the fret and use correct fretting pressure you'll be fine. I do admit that it can be a little bit sloppier and confusing half mashing frets above, and I do think it's best practice to get your entire fingertip in the fret, but it's just not possible for some frets and some people. I'm one of those people and I don't think it's an outright limitation.

 

[StevenC]

A lot of the modern tapping stuff is about tapping very hard. Tosin used to talk about it in clinics that he was hitting the notes really hard; there's not really a substitute for playing the note loudly at the source.

If playing Midnight hurts your hands, you have a technique problem first and foremost. As with all of guitar technique, you're not trying to play dead centre of the fret, you're aiming to play at close to the fretwire as possible. But also, with higher frets this isn't as relevant because they're smaller. If you think your fingers are too big to tap higher frets then you you tap a note and slide your finger up one fret at a time to find the spots you should be aiming for.

Once you get your technique down, get a proper compressor. One with attack and release knobs, it is not about the amount of compression.

Finally, at least on the recordings, a lot of these parts are punched in note by note and that is part of the sound. They can play the parts live, but in the studio extra clarity and separation can be achieved.

 

[wakjob]

If you know someone with Tim's plugin, you could look at how he sets up some of his presets.
That should be spot on to get that type of tone.

 

[Emperoff]

If you know someone with Tim's plugin, you could look at how he sets up some of his presets.
That should be spot on to get that type of tone.

He can just download the demo

 

[BabUShka]

Does Tim and the other fella mostly use single coil or coil tapped tones?

Coil tap helps a lot. With compression, good pickups and good amp it should do the job.

If you listen to those modern players like Abasi and Tim they pick really hard/consistent to get this particular sound, with a coil tap it generates a twang that sounds great distorted.

 

[spawnofthesith]

Keely Compressor Plus works great for this sort of thing. Or at least clean tappy bits from Grandpa bands like chon and scale the summit... I don't listen to a ton of polyphia