Civility in OT

[bostjan]

Geez, my name came up in four different instances already in this thread. I guess I need to lighten up.

 

[Andrew Lloyd Webber]

 

[Edika]

Geez, my name came up in four different instances already in this thread. I guess I need to lighten up.

While I do enjoy your posts and rebuttals, even the point by point break and analysis, sometimes you just have to let things go man. It's just not worth it and overanalyzing points in a thread, that doesn't really convey the whole of the other persons opinion, is counterproductive.

I'm personally quite demotivated by posting in those threads as I can't really convey my thoughts without writing an essay. It takes up too much time and then when I reread it I think "What will this post achieve? Nothing, so delete!"

 

[bostjan]

While I do enjoy your posts and rebuttals, even the point by point break and analysis, sometimes you just have to let things go man. It's just not worth it and overanalyzing points in a thread, that doesn't really convey the whole of the other persons opinion, is counterproductive.

I'm personally quite demotivated by posting in those threads as I can't really convey my thoughts without writing an essay. It takes up too much time and then when I reread it I think "What will this post achieve? Nothing, so delete!"

Point taken.

 

[TedEH]

Point taken.

Something I've noticed in other places - and I think this may be part of why your name comes up - is that any kind of direct reply to something is often going to be taken as argumentative. I get "in trouble" in some work-related communities because I've gotten into the habit of vocalizing observations, and those observations are taken as being criticisms even when I don't mean them to be. I've been given a label of being argumentative, despite not wanting to argue - I just want to continue the conversation, keep deconstructing what we're there to deconstruct, etc. It's difficult to portray intention or tone via text. I like to think most of the time, I get where you're coming from with the walls of text and don't take it as an attack or argument every time. I've learned a fair bit from some of those walls o' text.

I do find myself being a sort of opposing voice in a lot of places lately though. I'm noticing more and more that the communities I'm part of, either here, or at work, or among groups of friends, all tend to be much farther left leaning than I would consider myself to be - and it presents a challenge, because it's hard to be the one more-right-leaning-than-others voice when you're inside the echo chamber already. There's almost always a handful of more conservative people in these communities, but they get torn to shreds if they admit it, so nobody says anything publicly. It's a great way to single yourself out or get kicked out of a social circle. At the same time I really don't like the idea of leaving conversations that are heavily biased to just continue unopposed when I clearly don't agree with the direction they're going. I end up having to take calculated risks as to whether or not I can voice my opinion anywhere- and whenever I do, I tend to get PM'd by people after the fact saying they agreed but didn't want to say anything where they could also get chewed out for disagreeing with the swarm, leaving it to just be me against a community. There are certain topics that.... yeah, I'm not poking that bee hive either, even if I think people are completely wrong.

As much as I would not call myself "conservative" if I had to pick a label- I'm pretty far left leaning in a lot of subject too- but I'm much closer to being centered or right wing than 99% of the people I have to interact with, and it feels like I'm walking on eggshells a lot of times because of it.

This forum is probably one of the safest places for me to voice my opinion on things, since even in disagreements, the majority are pretty level headed about things and present their arguments in ways that - yes - I have on occasion been convinced to change my views on some things.

Don't try that in game dev circles though. Sweet jebus, if you disagree with them, you are the devil incarnate and should be strung up for the world to see.

 

[narad]

Something I've noticed in other places - and I think this may be part of why your name comes up - is that any kind of direct reply to something is often going to be taken as argumentative.

But I do think it's funny that a point-by-point breakdown is kind of exactly what you would expect from a mathematician, which I believe is @bostjan 's education or occupation. I think there's even some jokes along these lines.

I end up having to take calculated risks as to whether or not I can voice my opinion anywhere- and whenever I do, I tend to get PM'd by people after the fact saying they agreed but didn't want to say anything where they could also get chewed out for disagreeing with the swarm, leaving it to just be me against a community.

On SSO or the other places? That's crazy.

 

[Edika]

But I do think it's funny that a point-by-point breakdown is kind of exactly what you would expect from a mathematician, which I believe is @bostjan 's education or occupation. I think there's even some jokes along these lines.



On SSO or the other places? That's crazy.

I think it differers from person to person. I'm a physicist but I always look at the broader meaning of a post and reply on that, not necessarily the individual components. I usually however question whether the effort of writing something and engaging in some discussions will be worth it (like this post for an example and least three I wrote but deleted).

How much time do I have to spend? Do I have that time? Is the specific person posting discussing or just spouting opinions? Is he accepting to facts? Will I or he/she learn something from this or will we just be butting heads? All these plus others pass through my mind and whether I want to be invested enough to engage. If I especially see that a thread is polarised and the person engaging me is not really considering my point of view and he isn't mine and it just carries on and on with the same arguments made for 10-20-30 pages then it's just pointless.

 

[Andrew Lloyd Webber]

Overlooking 30+ pages of pointless debate is how new posts are made.

 

[Edika]

Overlooking 30+ pages of pointless debate is how new posts are made.

That's true, I have seen several times a post in the end of a long thread saying "Oh I haven't read any of the previous comments but here's my opinion". If only they read the last 3-4 pages and they'll get the general idea of the rest of the 30+ pages. It'll also show that the unique contribution they're planning to share is far from that.

 

[TedEH]

On SSO or the other places? That's crazy.

Both, for sure. Moreso in other places than here though. Things can get safely political here, but there's some slack communities tied into work where there's often a lot of heated and valuable discussion, but I have to watch what I say so as not to put my employment at risk. I trust my workplace enough that I think they can separate a persons work from their political opinions, but I don't want to be *that guy* in the office whose political leanings don't fit with the general vibe of the office. And I have some circles of friends that lean very heavily in very different directions. Some extremely liberal circles, some very conservative ones. But I hate those labels, they offer such a shallow view into what people really believe.

I guess it becomes a question of "is it worth it to make the arguement?". And most of the time it's not. I can gladly let people live their lives whatever way they want to, believing whatever they want to, knowing that it doesn't really matter in the long run, even if I strongly disagree with some element of it. Some friends and coworkers are all heavily into feminism and other kinds of activism, and everything is about inclusion and intersecionalism and all of that kind of stuff, which is something that..... I don't always think super highly of, despite thinking that they have the best of intentions. Not that I think inclusion is bad, or I have something against women, but I think so much activism is misguided and ignores the reality of some situations in favor of trying to make everyone "feel good" about things.

Gender politics is something I have strong (and unpopular) opinions about, but that's one that I don't want to touch with a 10ft pole in 99% of situations, lest I be torn to shreds, or alienate people around me for whom it's a relevant discussion. My opinion on it isn't important enough to sour those connections, and I simultaneously hold the opinion that people should have the freedom to live whatever way they want regardless of my opinions, as long as they aren't hurting anyone. Maybe it's a bit contradictory, but I'm 100% in support of people having the freedom to live their lives on the basis of things I disagree with. I don't think many people are good at holding that kind of valuation system. I have zero interest in trying to tell people how to live their lives, in much the same way that I don't want anyone telling me how to live mine. Just don't ask me for my opinion on it. Cause you probably won't like it. Don't ask me to elaborate on this point though - as I said, it's not a conversation I think is not worth having.

Edit:
I'll clarify, just for the record, that I'm not anti- any of those things. I'm not anti-feminist, or anti- women, or anti- activist or whatever else you might gather from the above. I respect the intent and goal of those kinds of things, I just often don't like the way those intents get applied to the real world.

 

[bostjan]

But I do think it's funny that a point-by-point breakdown is kind of exactly what you would expect from a mathematician, which I believe is @bostjan 's education or occupation. I think there's even some jokes along these lines.

Yeah, that's all accurate. Working with mathematics all day is probably the worst way to develop social skills, though, which is why I started going on the road, and why I feel so attached to this board.

 

[synrgy]

The primary reason I'm still here is because this community is usually able to maintain a respectable approach to topics that generally bring out the worst in other communities. I truthfully haven't touched any of my 7-string guitars in years (because cubital tunnel wrecked my fret hand; not due to any lack of interest) but I stay here (mostly in the OT) because I enjoy parsing through the debates y'all get into, and occasionally throwing in a penny or two of my own.

There's never going to be a perfect situation in which humans can have difficult discussions and none of them end up with hurt feelings. That's just our nature. That said, I've been doing 'internet chat' since the days of BBS/mIRC, so I've seen a lot, and I'm here to tell y'all that this place is far better - at least in terms of respectful discussion - than anywhere else I've been. Don't get me wrong: People post things here that one may find annoying, but I find ad-hominems to be surprisingly rare, here.

 

[synrgy]

And, to boot, I've had my mind/perspective changed here several times since I joined in '09. When/if I go back and look at some of my initial OT posts, I find some of them pretty cringe-worthy, and I owe much of that to you lot.

 

[narad]

Eeek, be safe out there guys!

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/...blogger-killed.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

I guess it becomes a question of "is it worth it to make the arguement?". And most of the time it's not. I can gladly let people live their lives whatever way they want to, believing whatever they want to, knowing that it doesn't really matter in the long run, even if I strongly disagree with some element of it. Some friends and coworkers are all heavily into feminism and other kinds of activism, and everything is about inclusion and intersecionalism and all of that kind of stuff, which is something that..... I don't always think super highly of, despite thinking that they have the best of intentions. Not that I think inclusion is bad, or I have something against women, but I think so much activism is misguided and ignores the reality of some situations in favor of trying to make everyone "feel good" about things.

Yea, fortunately my online debates aren't involving slack/my workplace -- that's a tough spot. Recently on a different forum (but still with people who post on SSO when not banned) I had to finally take that last step I had never done and actually block someone, which I had always thought was a bit of a cop out. I guess that's under the flawed assumption that everyone is actually on some level looking for discussion, which is just increasingly more apparent to not be the case. Feels pretty great actually! haha It's the most mod thing you can do as a non-mod I think I will also apply this to SSO, and just having me not arguing about chemtrails on SSO is probably going to make this community a better place. But it'd suck to block someone and then have to catch them awkwardly in the office lunch room, etc.

 

[bostjan]

(most internet arguments)

 

[Drew]

Point taken.

I struggle with that, too.

I'll add on to Randy's point, though, and note that while you and I and he and I have occasionally gotten pretty heated while discussing things, I think we've managed to remain civil, and if either of you happened to be coming through town I'd certainly buy you guys a beer or two to continue the conversation in person.

I do wish we had more honest-to-god conservatives here, but I think the problem now is that in the Trump era, that sort of name-calling and bomb-throwing is becoming the norm, so the odds of finding someone who supports Trump who's willing to discuss his views without just falling back on name-calling are getting increasingly small.

Then again, I guess when Trump's agenda is so directly targeting and attacking so many members of American society - non-white Americans and resident aliens, the LGBTQ community, Muslims, etc - I suppose it's no surprise that liberals are getting pretty heated, as well, since these are existential questions for many of them.

 

[synrgy]

I do wish we had more honest-to-god conservatives here,

I wish we had them anywhere.

Viewed as a collective since roughly W's presidency, I see no traces of fiscal or social conservatism in the contemporary GOP. Not to go 'no true Scotsman' here, but I feel that any legitimate conservative has at this point either eschewed the party, or their principles, but one can't support this Admin or Congress and still claim 'conservatism'.

Too many confuse 'being anti-liberal' with 'being conservative'.

 

[bostjan]

I think a lot of post-modern debate centers around us-vs-them mentality, i.e., if two people don't agree 100% on a subject, they must disagree overall. I deal with this a lot professionally, as well, where someone has the right idea, but due to a line of reasoning that I cannot follow. At work, I have to make sure I understand how it works and also why it needs to work a certain way, because if it breaks, the customer is going to be calling me first, and if it isn't broken, but isn't doing what the customer wants it to do, the customer is going to call me under the same pretense, and I have to be able to solve both problems equally effectively or else our products don't make it through beta testing. I have no problem killing a project because the thing we supplied simply doesn't solve the customer's problem in the first place, but I have to be able to explain that to an executive who's attention span for me is exactly three power point slides or ninety second, whichever comes first.

So, in the current political climate, you have Trump, who, I think, for most people, really represents Anti-Clinton. That's why whataboutism is such a big thing, it's not so much a distraction as it is that people want to see everything as good vs. evil, so if you are anti-this-one-particular-thing, then you must be pro-everything-else-I-don't-like. This erosion of the political middleground, not just in the USA, but all over the world, is exactly the crap that was going on during the 1930's. That's not to say that we're heading toward another Hitler or Mussolini or Hirohito, but we are headed toward a culture of cult-of-personality political leaders and unbridled nationalism, which is like storing your dynamite above the kitchen stove.

 

[TedEH]

^ I wouldn't have been able to word it as well, but I think you've nailed it.

That's not to say that we're heading toward another Hitler or Mussolini or Hirohito

There are some who are convinced this is exactly where we're headed. I can't say I think that's true per se (in the sense of trying to predict the future with any accuracy), but I also can't really say it's not a possibility.

 

[jaxadam]

I think a lot of post-modern debate centers around us-vs-them mentality, i.e., if two people don't agree 100% on a subject, they must disagree overall. I deal with this a lot professionally, as well, where someone has the right idea, but due to a line of reasoning that I cannot follow. At work, I have to make sure I understand how it works and also why it needs to work a certain way, because if it breaks, the customer is going to be calling me first, and if it isn't broken, but isn't doing what the customer wants it to do, the customer is going to call me under the same pretense, and I have to be able to solve both problems equally effectively or else our products don't make it through beta testing. I have no problem killing a project because the thing we supplied simply doesn't solve the customer's problem in the first place, but I have to be able to explain that to an executive who's attention span for me is exactly three power point slides or ninety second, whichever comes first.

So, in the current political climate, you have Trump, who, I think, for most people, really represents Anti-Clinton. That's why whataboutism is such a big thing, it's not so much a distraction as it is that people want to see everything as good vs. evil, so if you are anti-this-one-particular-thing, then you must be pro-everything-else-I-don't-like. This erosion of the political middleground, not just in the USA, but all over the world, is exactly the crap that was going on during the 1930's. That's not to say that we're heading toward another Hitler or Mussolini or Hirohito, but we are headed toward a culture of cult-of-personality political leaders and unbridled nationalism, which is like storing your dynamite above the kitchen stove.

This is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen you write.