Covid 19/Coronavirus

[Drew]

I'll nitpick a littl, @bostjan - science denial doesn't cause severe covid, but it's an associated risk factor in two ways; one, science denial is an associated risk factor with fairly high predictive power for not getting the covid vaccine, and not being vaccinated makes it much more likely you'll get covid in the first place, and two, as being vaccinated not only has a huge impact on your chances of getting covid, but also a pretty huge impact on your chances of a covid infection becoming severe, science denial is also associated with fairly strong predictive power with an existing covid infection becoming severe.

I think taking it a step beyond that, there's an added wrinkle here in that clearly not all science deniers are Trump supporters (though there's high correlation, I suspect), and not all Trump supporters are science deniers (ditto), but Trump supporters have been primed to see covid through a political lens and supporters that might otherwise by and large trust medical science are holding out on vaccination not because they necessarily disagree with the science (though many do), but because covid is "not that big a deal," they rthink.

Admittedly, a lot of this is semantic. If supporting a candidate makes you less likely to get a vaccine, and not getting vaccinated makes you more likely to get sick, and more likely to get severely sick if you get sick in the first place, well... it's not rocket surgery what's going to happen next.

The irony is that in whole swathes of the country now, these same people are overfilling emergency rooms and hospitals being kept alive on ventilators while doctors, who they don't trust enough to listen to them and get a vaccine, are trying to save their lives and in turn unable to try to save the lives of other people who need medical attewntion but there aren't enough remaining beds to take them in, so this whole thing isn't just some hypothetical logical experiment but a situation that really, really, really sucks for a ton of our countrymen who DO trust the scientific method.

 

[mbardu]

Sorry if that came off argumentative. It's 100% anecdotal, but when covid ripped through my extended family, 80% of my relatives who had to go to the ER were Trump supporters, even though maybe only 20-25% of my extended family were Trump supporters.

As for the pop-culture medical misinformation running rampant:

1. The vaccine might kill us all, but there's currently no unbiased reason to think so. There's just as much chance at the moment that space aliens will get us all before it matters anyway.

2. Masks depriving the brain of oxygen is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. As if the brain surgeon who wears a mask all work day is a brain-damaged moron or something.

3. My cousin, the first in my family to get covid, was, before she got covid, posting on facebook daily. Dozens of medical conspiracy theories and so forth. It's no stretch of the imagination to equate risky behaviours with bad medical information or with bad medical outcomes.

Masks depriving the brain of oxygen is the dumbest thing ever.

I do take issue with one thing in what you said.
The vaccine has been shown to be very good and very safe, that's for sure.
And there is currently no unbiased reason to think it will come back with a vengeance to kill us in the future.
But it is a novel invention, and the probability that it has an unidentified inherent deadly flaw is not astronomically low.
If you were to look at human inventions in general, even recent ones, it's pretty common for something with no immediate downside, and that seem to work really well, to still come back with nasty issues a few years or decades down the road. Something that was an unknown unknown. The probability that this happens to novel human invention in general is pretty far from 0. Glyphosate, phthalates, teflon, asbestos come to mind. Same for the hundreds of drug recalls that have happened in the past. It's not a "just as likely as aliens showing up" type of likelihood.

Does it happen in a majority of cases, no of course. But it can happen.

The counterargument that I used to buy into was that we can all see the progress we're making overall through decades after decades, and how our overall quality of life at the societal level is improving. So we must be doing something right. With our current safety protocols, our processes and precautions, with our thresholds for risk-benefits, we probably end up on the right side of the equation on average, otherwise we would not be improving like we are. The system is doing its job, and we can be confident that its failures remain exceptions and outliers. So overall, we're good.
Except that it now looks like we may have "peaked" in terms of quality of life with boomers. The current generations' life expectancy is already starting to decrease, and all sorts of ailments are on the rise. And that includes cancer and auto-immune diseases that are steadily increasing even in the younger portion of the population, even accounting for better diagnostics. Who knows, maybe that's just a blip, and the progress will be right back when we look back at stats ten years down the road. And btw, this is obviously a discussion way beyond Covid, but for me this means the "we must be doing something right" wholesale argument may reach its limits and some reevaluation of probabilities and risk-benefits might be warranted.
Of course, I know that's not going to happen. As long as the people making the decisions are benefitting from the system staying the way it is, there is no engine for change. But just like people agreeing to stay the F at home for one month, one time instead of struggling with that dumb pandemic for 2 years...one can dream right

 

[bostjan]

I literally had a friend tell me that he'd just get the vaccine if he got diagnosed with covid, and I had to explain to him how it would be too late.

I personally know maybe 2 or 3 flat out science deniers out of the thousands of people I interact with in my personal and professional life. And maybe a dozen who like to pick and choose. But there are a lot of people who fall under a broader umbrella of science disinterest. They trust science, but don't really care about it, because other people digest science for them and feed them a mushed up babyfood version of science. I think maybe (I have no evidence for this) a great deal of the people in that group maybe put too much trust in Fox News, which reiterates what Trump says as fact, and I get the hunch that this sort of information control bears the lion's share of blame for the situation we are currently in with covid.

 

[nightflameauto]

As an isolated data point it may not mean much, but my wife's family save her father, who essentially injects a steady stream of OAN and Fox News directly into his veins, have a complete disinterest in COVID and anything having to do with it. And have from the start. They simply avoid anything about it. I'm sure they aren't the only ones.

When asked if they would get the vaccine, the response is always a semi-non-committal, "probably not. Seems kinda pointless." Keep in mind these folks haven't changed any aspect of their lives not directly dictated to them by their jobs. They've been going out to eat the entire time, gathering with friends every week for parties and games, going to bars when they are open to watch football, etc. They don't have any wild conspiracy theories, they just don't have any interest in changing their own lies for a bit to save people.

People with that stance are something we don't hear discussed much. We seem to peg people into the vaccine worshippers and the conspiracy lunatics. The truth is there's an entire spectrum out there between those two extremes.

 

[Randy]

NYS vaccine mandate on hold after judge's order

 

[spudmunkey]

I heard a new one today. Negative health effects in children from vaping aren't actually from vaping specifically, but vape fluids and JUUL devices were used as a delivery method for COVID -19 from china, and that any restrictions on banning vaping are a waste of time, because any kids that got any sort of illness or have any sort of negative effects from vaping are actually because of the china virus.

 

[mbardu]

I heard a new one today. Negative health effects in children from vaping aren't actually from vaping specifically, but vape fluids and JUUL devices were used as a delivery method for COVID -19 from china, and that any restrictions on banning vaping are a waste of time, because any kids that got any sort of illness or have any sort of negative effects from vaping are actually because of the china virus.

Wait what? Are there actual human beings who believe that?
With that and the 5g-borne nonsense, I seriously wonder if there are actual real people believing this stuff - or if it's just craziness made up just to make any questions look dumb.

 

[spudmunkey]

Wait what? Are there actual human beings who believe that?
With that and the 5g-borne nonsense, I seriously wonder if there are actual real people believing this stuff - or if it's just craziness made up just to make any questions look dumb.

"since it was lungs, never seen before, and very serious.
It was like covid, which WE did not know of until spring.... but the china virus WAS out there for sure in January and they say PROBABLY in THE FALL in 2019, as far back as August.....so that is what I THINK they had."

 

[Bodes]

A friend sent me this image, I think it came from instagram originally. Certainly sums up some of the previous posts.
Such an emotive piece which is as clever as it is a realisation of how some parts of the medical profession are struggling.
Massive props to everyone who is working in the medical field, including all ancillary staff (i.e. cleaners, admin), who are working under such horrible conditions and are doing their absolute best to try to keep people alive.
Sorry if the image comes up huge.

 

[SpaceDock]

View attachment 97678
A friend sent me this image, I think it came from instagram originally. Certainly sums up some of the previous posts.
Such an emotive piece which is as clever as it is a realisation of how some parts of the medical profession are struggling.
Massive props to everyone who is working in the medical field, including all ancillary staff (i.e. cleaners, admin), who are working under such horrible conditions and are doing their absolute best to try to keep people alive.
Sorry if the image comes up huge.

Patient just needs a Maga hat.

 

[mbardu]

Patient just needs a Maga hat.

View attachment 97672

So they are afraid we'll have vacancies in the government? Where was that concern when Trump voluntarily refused to fill vacancies?

Not saying some of those don't have some correlation (as mentioned causation is different...), but somehow it's the imagined "other side" who's making things political?

 

[SpaceDock]

Not saying some of those don't have some correlation (as mentioned causation is different...), but somehow it's the imagined "other side" who's making things political?

I don’t see how the other side is imagined and if people want to die by their politics to “own the libs,” good for them.

 

[mbardu]

I don’t see how the other side is imagined and if people want to die by their politics to “own the libs,” good for them.

If you are thinking there is a homogenous "other side" that is made of stereotypical antivax MAGA trumpers who are "dying to own the libs", then yeah that's literally imagination on your end. And I know you don't "see" it, because it's apparent from your replies.
But reality is nuanced and the caricatures we see on TV and you jump on are just that: caricatures. Not as representative as you think they are.

 

[IwantTacos]

If you are thinking there is a homogenous "other side" that is made of stereotypical antivax MAGA trumpers who are "dying to own the libs", then yeah that's literally imagination on your end. And I know you don't "see" it, because it's apparent from your replies.
But reality is nuanced and the caricatures we see on TV and you jump on are just that: caricatures. Not as representative as you think they are.

we’re laughing at a specific group of people that are owning themselves.
If you have a different group that also needs to be laughed at. Please let me know.

hell I’ll add one. Leftist Hollywood weirdos. Ostensibly liberal. But also crazy as fuck.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

If you are thinking there is a homogenous "other side" that is made of stereotypical antivax MAGA trumpers who are "dying to own the libs", then yeah that's literally imagination on your end. And I know you don't "see" it, because it's apparent from your replies.
But reality is nuanced and the caricatures we see on TV and you jump on are just that: caricatures. Not as representative as you think they are.

I work in a factory and live in the suburban/rural Midwest, there is most definitely a solid contingent of "die to own the libs" people. Tons of them.

You should see the signs I drive by out in the county.

I'm sure larger cities to the coasts have the opposite, old hippies and people too into crystals are definitely not right wing, but they share a distrust for mainstream science.

 

[IwantTacos]

I work in a factory and live in the suburban/rural Midwest, there is most definitely a solid contingent of "die to own the libs" people. Tons of them.

You should see the signs I drive by out in the county.

I'm sure larger cities to the coasts have the opposite, old hippies and people too into crystals are definitely not right wing, but they share a distrust for mainstream science.

actually a surprising amount of overlap between the Christian conservative and essential oils crystal crowd for some reason.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

actually a surprising amount of overlap between the Christian conservative and essential oils crystal crowd for some reason.

It doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[Randy]

actually a surprising amount of overlap between the Christian conservative and essential oils crystal crowd for some reason.

I actually know quite a few crystal healing folks that also were (are?) Trump people. Right in town there's a tarot card reading place with an 'unmask our children now' sign in the window.

 

[bostjan]

I work in a factory and live in the suburban/rural Midwest, there is most definitely a solid contingent of "die to own the libs" people. Tons of them.

You should see the signs I drive by out in the county.

I'm sure larger cities to the coasts have the opposite, old hippies and people too into crystals are definitely not right wing, but they share a distrust for mainstream science.

Same, but I live in rural New England. I have colleagues in Texas and California who have told me the same.

I actually know quite a few crystal healing folks that also were (are?) Trump people. Right in town there's a tarot card reading place with an 'unmask our children now' sign in the window.

We have a group of 2-4 protesters with sandwich signs out every morning in front of the school with "brains need oxygen" and "masks are unnecessary" signs. I have not spoken with any of them, but they certainly have that "I moved to Vermont to live off the land and be a hippy" "look" to them. Personally, I've been given a hard time for wearing a mask while running errands by all sorts of gruff-looking men, soccer moms, younger people with blue/pink hair, elderly men in business suits, etc. There seems to be no correlation between masking sentiment and subcultural appearance.

 

[StevenC]

I'm finally able to go back to swimming after my blood clot and nobody there wears a mask ever. This is really disheartening because when I was last there in May everyone was wearing a mask when not in the water.