Problems with band member

[fantom]

What the shit dude!?

What did I JUST fucking say about different meanings of "hire" ?

You hire a fucking cab driver to take you home, but when you get out the cab and hand over a 20 you don't say "You're fired!". You hire him for one ride, when the ride is over, it's done and he doesn't show up in the morning to drive you to fucking work, does he?

If you hire someone for one gig, you don't have to fire them. You either ask them to come along next time, or you don't. But once the gig is over, there is no more agreement between you.

The only reason to fire someone is if they were asked to be a permanent member of the band; someone who both of you agreed will continue working with you on an indeterminate basis.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed? You are really being pedantic here.

And there is no issue with hiring someone for a single gig and telling them afterwards that you are no longer interested. Call it firing or call it "no longer needing your services". Saying nothing at all is called ghosting.

 

[Cyanide_Anima]

Necro bump!

Ya'll ever get sort of strange behavior from bandmates?

Say you're in a band thingie, and writing a song. Person A and C get a bunch of parts written and recorded (Persons A and C write, arrange, and produce all the music and arrangements). Everything works well musically so far. Person B records a bunch of parts. Person B's parts don't really work with the rest of the arrangements. Kind of off balance rhythmically, kind of sloppy, the performances/takes vary in timbre too much to make a modern polished product, and there's a lack of tension or melodic information in the part. It's suggested that the parts be reworked together as a group to both flow more naturally with the other parts, and to be more catchy and melodically interesting (80% of the parts hitting one note on the upbeat isn't very engaging, the rest are off-key). They reluctantly agree. Persons A and C continue writing and repeat some parts for second wave and add a new section. Person B likes the new additions. More discussion of the reworking of Person B's previous parts. A while later Person B very firmly states that the new arrangements and additions do not work with the song, is vague about what it is they do not like about the updates, and states in a matter of fact manner than what they do not like needs to be removed.

Might be worth noting that typically Person A and C just edit the shit out of Person B's parts and use "studio magic" to make the parts not ruin the flow of the music. They do this without telling Person B most of the time.

What about bandmates who talk lots of trash about other bands in the area? How do you guys go about handling that? It's strikes me as odd to talk shite about band X and band Y's music and ability when that person's ability is clearly well below that capability.

We want this to be a fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches and folks who are willing to put the work in to make their additions the best they can possibly be rather than rely on others to fix everything up.

 

[Lozek]

Necro bump!

Ya'll ever get sort of strange behavior from bandmates?

Say you're in a band thingie, and writing a song. Person A and C get a bunch of parts written and recorded (Persons A and C write, arrange, and produce all the music and arrangements). Everything works well musically so far. Person B records a bunch of parts. Person B's parts don't really work with the rest of the arrangements. Kind of off balance rhythmically, kind of sloppy, the performances/takes vary in timbre too much to make a modern polished product, and there's a lack of tension or melodic information in the part. It's suggested that the parts be reworked together as a group to both flow more naturally with the other parts, and to be more catchy and melodically interesting (80% of the parts hitting one note on the upbeat isn't very engaging, the rest are off-key). They reluctantly agree. Persons A and C continue writing and repeat some parts for second wave and add a new section. Person B likes the new additions. More discussion of the reworking of Person B's previous parts. A while later Person B very firmly states that the new arrangements and additions do not work with the song, is vague about what it is they do not like about the updates, and states in a matter of fact manner than what they do not like needs to be removed.

Might be worth noting that typically Person A and C just edit the shit out of Person B's parts and use "studio magic" to make the parts not ruin the flow of the music. They do this without telling Person B most of the time.

What about bandmates who talk lots of trash about other bands in the area? How do you guys go about handling that? It's strikes me as odd to talk shite about band X and band Y's music and ability when that person's ability is clearly well below that capability.

We want this to be a fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches and folks who are willing to put the work in to make their additions the best they can possibly be rather than rely on others to fix everything up.

Person A & C need to make everyone's lives easier and get rid of Person B, they are dead weight and a liability. Don't put it off with 'maybe they will change' - they won't, or 'they are useful for X' - Someone else who is not dragging them back will also be able do that thing and possibly even bring something that they don't have to the table.

 

[TedEH]

There's bound to be a way to switch things up without being antagonistic towards person B. It's entirely fine to change things around if there's too much creative or workflow difference for everyone to be happy - but if you barge into the situation with things like "you're dead weight", then it becomes confrontational for no reason.

If this is a project where you want to have complete creative control in terms of what material ends up in the final project, then you need to define that from the outset, and let B decide for themselves if they're ok with that - this way it's on them to either agree and hand over creative control, or to disagree and respectfully back out of the project. Alternatively, if you're going to relinquish some creative control to the group, you have to live with the fact that you're not going to like 100% of what others contribute. It just is what it is. Be honest with yourselves and your bandmates.

 

[odibrom]

(...)Be honest with yourselves and your bandmates.

This is the way...

 

[wheresthefbomb]

I'll answer the one nobody else did, it's never cool to trash other local bands and always a bad look. In this house we support the scene that gives us life. This person sounds like they're probably not very secure with themselves, I totally empathize and I hope they figure that out because they've probably got a lot to offer the world.

It's also totally not your problem.

We want this to be a fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches and folks who are willing to put the work in to make their additions the best they can possibly be rather than rely on others to fix everything up.

Person B has shown you with their actions that they are not this person. Covering their mistakes and waiting for them to change is enabling them, and this whole situation is very obviously brewing resentment among all parties, which will absolutely turn into a bullshit volcano if you don't do something about it sooner than later.

Last time I let a band member go, I told them that it was evident that we had different artistic goals, and that it was my firm belief we'd both be better off pursuing those separately.* I just try to make it about me as much as possible (while still being honest), there's nothing to say at this point that hasn't already been said in a more constructive environment. They'll either figure it out or they won't. Empathy is rad but you can't help someone who isn't helping themselves. Sometimes the best you can do for someone is cut them loose.


*He'd told me previously the last band before that to kick him out, he'd slashed all their tires, so I count the fact that zero tires were slashed as a testament to the efficacy of my diplomatic efforts. It was still the end of that friendship, though.

 

[TedEH]

Whooda thunk the kind of person who slashes tires after being told their songs suck wouldn't be a great fit for a professional collaborative music project? +1 to not trashing the locals though.

 

[Xaios]

*He'd told me previously the last band before that to kick him out, he'd slashed all their tires

Can't spell "stable personality" without "stab".

 

[wheresthefbomb]

Whooda thunk the kind of person who slashes tires after being told their songs suck wouldn't be a great fit for a professional collaborative music project? +1 to not trashing the locals though.

Can't spell "stable personality" without "stab".

 

[TedEH]

What I'm taking away from this is that when someone writes "stable", I'm going to pronounce it in my head as "stabble". Stab-le? Like Stab. You get the picture.

 

[budda]

Dont trash other bands? Eh if band A shit talks band B because band B always asks to borrow gear and takes too long to set up and/or tear down, im with band A.

 

[CanserDYI]

I'd agree, but I think wheresthefbomb was morely talking about talent, don't shit talk someone's ability if youre terrible yourself.

 

[Rev2010]

What about bandmates who talk lots of trash about other bands in the area? How do you guys go about handling that?

I never understood this kind of crap. Music is music, if you don't like something then so what - someone else will like it. Certain styles of music I don't like and don't get, same with some bands, but I don't waste my time going on about it or trashing it. It's not a competition and I don't see what there's to gain making enemies in the music scene. I'd tell the band member to keep all that shit to themself or go their own way as their actions can only hurt the entire band.

As for the rest of your questions - I agree with what @TedEH said.

 

[wheresthefbomb]

Dont trash other bands? Eh if band A shit talks band B because band B always asks to borrow gear and takes too long to set up and/or tear down, im with band A.

Totally agree, the distinction to me is basically "that band sucks" vs "that band's members' actions suck." I'm for holding people accountable for their actions all day long.

 

[TedEH]

Without any context, I take the phrasing of "trashing other bands" to imply it's unwarranted. Some friendly trash talk between bands that know eachother - fine, whatever. If someone is actively a dick when you interact with them, well, then you're just calling it like it is. Punching down to other bands because you don't like the genre or don't think of them as talented or something is just a bad look if you want to be taken as a professional, or if you want to be equally supported by that same community.

I once was playing a show where the opening band was pretty amateur-ish. And I don't say that because "they suck", but they were visibly new to the whole process of playing shows, even if they were decent musicians. Before the show starts, I'm standing near the stage side, notice the guitarist steps on his cable and it pulls from his guitar - so I go to him and suggest, hey, if you wrap the cable around the strap, like so, when you step on it, it'll just tug a little but it won't unplug you. He told me to go fvck myself, he knows what he's doing.

Nah, they suck. At that point you've earned the trash talk.

 

[budda]

I'd agree, but I think wheresthefbomb was morely talking about talent, don't shit talk someone's ability if youre terrible yourself.

Have you met humans?

 

[CanserDYI]

Without any context, I take the phrasing of "trashing other bands" to imply it's unwarranted. Some friendly trash talk between bands that know eachother - fine, whatever. If someone is actively a dick when you interact with them, well, then you're just calling it like it is. Punching down to other bands because you don't like the genre or don't think of them as talented or something is just a bad look if you want to be taken as a professional, or if you want to be equally supported by that same community.

I once was playing a show where the opening band was pretty amateur-ish. And I don't say that because "they suck", but they were visibly new to the whole process of playing shows, even if they were decent musicians. Before the show starts, I'm standing near the stage side, notice the guitarist steps on his cable and it pulls from his guitar - so I go to him and suggest, hey, if you wrap the cable around the strap, like so, when you step on it, it'll just tug a little but it won't unplug you. He told me to go fvck myself, he knows what he's doing.

Nah, they suck. At that point you've earned the trash talk.

Reminds me of a local punk band we had back in the day around here, they thought they were sooooo PUNK ROCK that telling them "hey man that sounded great", apparently wasnt a very punk thing to do, so they told me "fuck off ya cunt."

I was taken aback, then found out same dude liked to pull his little pecker in public parties, makes perfect sense now.

 

[Cyanide_Anima]

I'll answer the one nobody else did, it's never cool to trash other local bands and always a bad look. In this house we support the scene that gives us life. This person sounds like they're probably not very secure with themselves, I totally empathize and I hope they figure that out because they've probably got a lot to offer the world.

It's also totally not your problem.



Person B has shown you with their actions that they are not this person. Covering their mistakes and waiting for them to change is enabling them, and this whole situation is very obviously brewing resentment among all parties, which will absolutely turn into a bullshit volcano if you don't do something about it sooner than later.

Last time I let a band member go, I told them that it was evident that we had different artistic goals, and that it was my firm belief we'd both be better off pursuing those separately.* I just try to make it about me as much as possible (while still being honest), there's nothing to say at this point that hasn't already been said in a more constructive environment. They'll either figure it out or they won't. Empathy is rad but you can't help someone who isn't helping themselves. Sometimes the best you can do for someone is cut them loose.


*He'd told me previously the last band before that to kick him out, he'd slashed all their tires, so I count the fact that zero tires were slashed as a testament to the efficacy of my diplomatic efforts. It was still the end of that friendship, though.

So, the trash talk thing is strange here. In one instance Person B talks about how terrible X band is, how they sound like shit, they're posers, the genre they are in is garbage, etc. When I take as objective of a look as I can about the band he is talking about and I see that they are breaking new ground. They are extremely, EXTREMELY well produced. They are nailing the sound they are going after. Everything is just right. I have nothing but respect for them. Person B has actually made attempts in other projects to do a similar sound as Band X, but it was not good and was in fact very amateurish. Which is very ironic. This happens semi-regularly about other local bands as well.

Person A has also done production for person B's other bands in the past. Which basically was talking a terribly arranged song and redoing all the instrumentation, writing new parts, synths, drums, guitars, bass, etc., and making it all into something cohesive so they could release it as their band's music. Which was OK since they are getting their production chops out there, and it has drawn in some work for them.

It's easier to put up with divas and people with huge egos when they have the work ethic, talent, and skill to back it up. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth if they fall short of that high bar they've set for everyone else.

It's been made clear from the outset that Persons C and A are the music makers, deciding the direction of the music, doing the production, etc. But Person B's feelings get hurt whenever something about their part isn't received as being perfect, and they won't retrack the parts the vast majority of the time.

Might be time for another discussion drawing some additional lines.

 

[LostTheTone]

I'd agree, but I think wheresthefbomb was morely talking about talent, don't shit talk someone's ability if youre terrible yourself.

Honestly you have to play it by ear - I think it's natural for bands in the same place, even playing on the same bill, to have a bit of a friendly (or not so friendly) banter. Especially if they are in not-really-the-same genres. If you're a death metal band playing with a black metal band, yeah there'll be some joshing even if both of you are great.

And that's to be expected, and it's ok, and it's mostly a bit of fun. When someone you vaguely know says your latest song is a pile of wank, and you wish him a hearty "go fuck yourself" then that's just part of being in a band.

But for all that... If your band is shit (and we all start out shit) then don't be up yourself. No-one minds that you're shit. We all have rough nights. But don't be shit talking the headliners who have better songs, and played better, and who have fans showing up. It's just not a good look.

In the end, it's alright to just be a lad and knock around with the other lads. But it's not alright to send unwarranted criticism when you can't do any better.

 

[Necris]

Necro bump!

Ya'll ever get sort of strange behavior from bandmates?
(Details)

We want this to be a fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches and folks who are willing to put the work in to make their additions the best they can possibly be rather than rely on others to fix everything up.

RE: B's "strange behavior".
I've been in a band with a guy like this in the past. He's probably at least somewhat hung up on having something he can point to as his own personal contribution when he hears the band's recordings, I doubt he'd ever admit it directly but I'd guess that's why he's suddenly rejecting the new parts you guys wrote with him, it wasn't *just* him, it wasn't just his good ideas making the song better. That's usually an ego thing, in which case it's really up to his own personality as to whether or not he can get past it. It could also be that while he was involved in the rewriting process he didn't feel that he really had much control over the creative decisions, the possibilities are broad and none of us here can really know anything beyond what we're told. That's a band discussion that needs to happen, ultimately.

With regard to the rest:
The way things are going right now isn't "professional" in the slightest, your band dynamic is bordering on toxic teenage relationship nonsense in band form; you're adults so, if you really want to have a band, communicate like adults.

Obviously this is a band that could function just fine with just the two members A and C, and probably should. However, going forward those two have their own issues with regards to the band's long term goals. They are, to an extent, enabling B's failures by replacing his takes behind his back (a great way to create conflict if he were ever to find out). In doing so they've also chosen the path of least resistance and the least value; quietly replacing B's takes in secret and foregoing any opportunity to provide what could be valuable feedback, in favor of having their tracks how they want them, when they want them and avoiding any immediate conflict.

Actions like this make it seem as though neither A nor C really want to take any sort of leadership role in the band and that they're committed to not directly addressing problems as they arise. Instead they favor simply letting things slide, wallpapering over B's shortcomings in the studio and hoping the guy figures it out on his own, or leaves of his own accord to allow them to have their project as they envision it. In this scenario A and C are at least partial contributors to failure and conflict, but they're unable or unwilling to recognize their own culpability, assuming instead that everything would be fine if it weren't for B's "strange behavior". Whether the assessment that B is the core problem is accurate or not doesn't change the fact that someone (or, ideally, everyone involved) needs to take a more active role in interpersonal problem solving and communication.

If A and C want the dynamic that can create a "fruitful and professional level project without tons of headaches" they need to begin to take a more active approach to band communication, or give up and just stick to being a 2 man studio-only project. The current state of things is band poison and it would only become more difficult to manage with more members.