Snowflakery...

[spudmunkey]

I too crush mozzarella stick appetizers using facts and logic*

*Facts and logic of course being my left and right hands

"My killed hands tattooed 'FACTS' & 'LOGIC'
across it's brother's fist
That filthy five,
They did nothing to challenge or resist"

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

Yeah but see you yourself have done the exact same thing. By merely bringing up any issues the other side has, that can be construed as this "whataboutism" thing. The problem is, you're going to have to bring those issues up if you truly expect to make any gains regarding this country. You identify an issue and then work on it. As far as disparity goes, I'm of course referring to how people are treated in general. There is still a disparity in this country regarding people of different backgrounds.

I absolutely have not.
Whataboutism is a response, not an initiating action. Me saying "The left doesn't do X" isn't whataboutism. That would be if someone accused me of doing something and my response is simply "what about you? You do it too." It's avoiding the issue, shifting attention from an uncomfortable topic onto someone else. There's no harm in identifying a problem and I'll be the first to admit that the right currently has many, many problems.

And yes, if you want to invoke change you need to do something at some point. This sounds like you're still on the Kaepernick thing and I've gone down that rabbit hole before. I'm not touching it because that wasn't what I was talking about.

So every time any person does something, they are directly responsible for how the people who disagree with what they did acts in response to their actions? Where are agency and personal responsibility? People, whether they wan't to believe it or not are directly responsible for their own actions. You can't just point back and forth. I understand what you're saying. Both sides need to take a pill and settle down. Agreed. But you can't blame one side for the actions of the other. They made a choice to do as they did. No one created anyone else. They chose to react irrationally or to reveal who they were all along. The Alt-Right is the Alt-Right because that's how they see things. It isn't because AntiFa did some dumb shit like punching Richard Spencer or because BLM blocked a street. AntiFa didn't become radical because of the Alt-Right. They were always radical and got bold because they discovered they weren't alone. Most of this can be attributed to the internet and its ability to bring crazy assholes together from disparate parts of this enormous spinning projectile. The media has a special super power that they like to use to fan the flames of literally EVERY dumpster fire happening on said spinning projectile. Mostly because they know what will make us watch in large enough numbers to draw ad revenue. Humans aren't civil. They're wild animals clever enough to convince themselves that they are civil. Convincing yourself that some else is to blame for the dumb shit one group does is the same as blaming the girl who broke your heart for dumb shit you're doing to make yourself feel better about the situation. She didn't make you do any of it. You just want an excuse to not be responsible for your own stupidity. The result of all of this though, is that everyone eventually realizes on some level how stupid they were being, and if they aren't too proud, they extend an olive branch. That's where the change actually starts happening. We need the conflict to get better. We don't have to struggle against our environments anymore. Nature has submitted to us. Except that nature that resides within us that needs something to struggle against so that we can progress. Those two groups of idiots are defining the middle ground right now. Eventually most of us will end up there and be what determines how we move forward.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't think that you thought about what I said at all.
At no point was there ever an indication made that when someone does something it's someone else's fault, that's insanity. To insinuate that the incessant media coverage of these fringe extremes isn't pushing people further to the left/right is also...to be blunt, complete fantasy.

You can't constantly tell the populace "oh yeah, our country is filled with racists and fascists," and expect people to not start to think "Oh shit, our country is actually filled with racists and fascists, we need to do something about this before things get out of control." Granted sure, you have to pre-disposed to that notion to some extent, but if you tell people something often enough eventually they'll start to believe it, and showing up at a demonstration with the intent of causing someone actual physical harm isn't that far of a stretch if you honestly think this person and their fans think Hitler was a great guy.

You're not wrong on a lot of this- this IS all compacted by the internet, media availability, echo-chambers and outrage culture. But the key connecting factor is......people that really piss people off. These tend to be extremists. Do you honestly think that the Antifa movement would be as strong as it is if the alt-right just didn't exist?
Do you think there would even BE an alt-right the way we know it today if there weren't left-wing extremists? No, it'd be a fringe group of a dozen whackjobs stuck in the 1800s that would be a complete joke to an entire nation.

 

[G_3_3_k_]

Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't think that you thought about what I said at all.
At no point was there ever an indication made that when someone does something it's someone else's fault, that's insanity. To insinuate that the incessant media coverage of these fringe extremes isn't pushing people further to the left/right is also...to be blunt, complete fantasy.

You can't constantly tell the populace "oh yeah, our country is filled with racists and fascists," and expect people to not start to think "Oh shit, our country is actually filled with racists and fascists, we need to do something about this before things get out of control." Granted sure, you have to pre-disposed to that notion to some extent, but if you tell people something often enough eventually they'll start to believe it, and showing up at a demonstration with the intent of causing someone actual physical harm isn't that far of a stretch if you honestly think this person and their fans think Hitler was a great guy.

You're not wrong on a lot of this- this IS all compacted by the internet, media availability, echo-chambers and outrage culture. But the key connecting factor is......people that really piss people off. These tend to be extremists. Do you honestly think that the Antifa movement would be as strong as it is if the alt-right just didn't exist?
Do you think there would even BE an alt-right the way we know it today if there weren't left-wing extremists? No, it'd be a fringe group of a dozen whackjobs stuck in the 1800s that would be a complete joke to an entire nation.

"Every time the alt right does some stupid clowny shit, they create more radical leftists. Every time the radical lefists do some clowny stupid shit, they push more people toward the alt right. These people don't realize that they are literally creating the people they're so vocally against."

This statement patently lays the blame at the feet of opposing groups and leaves no room for personal culpability. However, I'm using a bit of hyperbole to make my point because I don't believe you actually think that.

You're right that these groups couldn't exist without each other. They feed off of each other's activity. My point is that the "whackjobs" discover each other and organize because of the web, and are given reason to make bold moves because the media eye will linger on those who are like them, not those who piss them off. People rarely do bold things that are contrary to social norms unless they have a large enough group to make them feel like they aren't alone or on dangerous ground. We are inherently social, and don't do things unless we see some ground to gain in a social hierarchy. The radical things done by one group may inspire action from a specific group that has chosen to organize themselves around a set of ideas. But those ideas were in the heads of the individuals before they identified with that group. They may have been fleeting thoughts and just needed something to help them take root. They were already there and that person was willing to entertain them. The proof is in the fact that these ideas have existed as far back as we have written history. The fact that these groups need each other to exist doesn't mean that if one didn't exist, literally all the people that would have been in said groups suddenly stop thinking the bonkers shit that they think. They just wouldn't be making a bunch of noise about what they think because there wouldn't be a social climate they felt safe making that noise in. There are a few motivating factors in humans. Most based in need. You aren't going to risk one need for another unless the perceived threat to another need exceeds the need for access to a more basic one.

 

[@zwen]

I’m finding now that being a mainstream conservative harping on “snowflakes” and “social studies warriors” inspires equal derision from both the Left and the Far Right.