The Carvin / Kiesel thread

[spudmunkey]

There's more non-returnable stuff in general.

While true, and I'm sure I touched on it in the "Never again..." thread, but much of that is on things that they just never offered, or would have flat-out refused to do.

I remember whenever someone would get them to do a custom burst, it was big news! Even something as simple as a blue-to-red burst, or a "reverse dragonburst". There was an upswing in them willing to do more, which seems to have correlated in Jeff getting older and more involved behind the scenes, if the timeline in my head makes sense. By the time the PB bass rolled out in 2013, that was a Jeff-designed model, and he had already been doing custom finishes and even supposedly treated boards for years before that. I can't say if those previous non-standard bursts (even when made from standard colors) were returnable or not, though. After the SH550 was lauched, I remember someone wanted one painted in opaque black paint, and with a inline pointy headstock. After a long back-and-forth I know they agreed to do it, but I remember it was talk-of-the-town over on the forum when he said it wouldn't be returnable, that they would only do it if it still came with the flamed top under the black paint (because back then the base spec was flamed maple and they refused to build any with lower-cost woods) and that there wouldn't be a discount on cheaper wood even if they did agree to it.

Nothing about that build was something they didn't offer on other models, and yet it still took lots of effort to convince them to do it.

What is clear though, is that many of the NEW options are non-returnable. Things they never offered before. Buckeye burl, their raw tone satin finish, etc. I don't remember seeing all that many NAMM builds on the in-stock store more than a couple years ago. It seems like they just brought fewer to NAMM, and then sold them through the factory store. So having them online but not returnable isn't all that much of a change in policy.

I'm not discounting that there also haven't been increases in what's non-returnable from things that used to be OK like the pickup situation (them installing your own pickup, even if it fits the standard routes, is non-returnable even if it's their old older pickups you happen to have lying around (or specifically purchased for a future build)), but the vast majority of things that are non-returnable would have simply gotten a "no" not-all-that-many years ago.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

@spudmunkey

Using Carvin pickups in your build by replacing the garbage they offer as standard is non-returnable? Oh jesus christ that is so much bullshit.

 

[spudmunkey]

I agree. Since it seems like they still HAVE the pickups available to order on a build from the factrory, maybe that's a part of it (similar to how they don't accept customer's-own-tops if it's a wood they already carry in-house)...but it's a hard line: you send in pickups, there's a cost and it's non-returnable, no matter who they are from.

 

[Andrew Lloyd Webber]

Changing topic slightly:

What effects, if any, do you folks feel Jeff’s direction of the brand has had on Kiesel resale trends in recent years through to the present?

Up until around a year ago, eBay and Reverb listings had a way of giving the impression that the 22-pole pickups were products only you were hip to: You could always find sets of them for around $60 US, you never had to worry about string spacing, and you could always resell them for what you paid.

Same went for many of the base Carvin guitar models: Once the original owner took that initial 40-60% resale loss (regardless of how many times they included “owned by misha mansoor of periphery” in the title, body, and shipping fields), the build-quality and certainty the guitar wouldn’t depreciate much further were, to me, the reality of where the value of the Carvin brand rested and, in that respect, second-to-none. IMO, this alone is what fueled the general good will toward the brand; with the image of a small, family-operated custom shop that sold factory-direct merely reinforcing it.

There were many occasions between 2013-‘18 that I nearly pulled the plug on a sub-$800 Holdsworth guitar, and more occasions in which I bought a $40-$80 set of H22 pickups. The occasions in which I didn’t in-no-way reflected on the brand on a negative light. One of the best things you can say for a brand in the used market is to regard them as a “next time” purchase when you end up snagging a competing product instead.

At present, though...

The artificial scarcity of the 22-pole pickups caused by their announced perpetual discontinuation, combined with the span in which Lithium sales were artificially inflated by making them mandatory in new builds, has resulted in a flood of resold Jeff-Isn’t-Taking-His-Lithium set listings that, if anybody wanted, they’d likely already own them in a Kiesel guitar they were forced to include them in. And the ‘22 sets are either being hoarded or parted out individually at prices above competitors they were previously considered thrifty alternatives to.

Furthermore, Jeff’s abandonment of the 22-pole format, combined with an unwillingness to produce 12-pole bridge pickups in industry-standard F-spacing (at least since I last checked) means that I never even consider the occasional dozen crops of new listings of surplus Lithium or Parallax pickups, on the offchance that I’d have to replace them with something aesthetically-correct before selling the guitar.

And the used guitars? In the past three years, I’ve averaged a calendar month between NGDs and the “barely played mint” listings on this site and the auction sites. And the clown vomit-palette people dream up in the antiquated builder that only lets you imagine what a Kiesel Racing Blue Waffle Infection body combined with gold binding across the asymmetrical bevel that sits on top of the spalted body beforeyou agree to pay the build deposit has resulted in listings that should regularly be updated to include the cobwebs.

This creates situations in which someone curious about speccing out a custom Kiesel Priapus build in the decades-obsolete builder is confronted with a cost difference of more than a hundred percent between a new build that doesn’t look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations, and a used listing that does. The potential buyer decides that a 9-10 week build time leaves too many opportunities for regret, and ends up buying neither Kiesel product.

I contend that the regard of potential buyers walking away from a purchase with a “meh”, rather than a “next time” sentiment, is all Jeff Kiesel will be remembered for doing with his family’s legacy. And I feel the used market has finally filtered out enough of the past good will toward Carvin to reflect the present sentiment (whatever that may be to you).

 

[MatiasTolkki]

Well i know for a fact here in Japan that pretty tops means overpriced resellers for the "Kiesel" name, but Carvins (outside a couple DC400s that are WAY overpriced for what they are) are typically dirt cheap. Hell, I saw a Bolt + on ishibashi a couple weeks ago that only went for around 54000 yen, which is INSANE for a used Carvin over here (insane as in SUPER cheap). I found a pretty beat up DC200 in black for 100,000, but while it sounded incredible, too many dings for my liking, especially at that price.

 

[Andrew Lloyd Webber]

You’d certainly have a better idea of how Calvinu/Kisuru resale trends in Japan have changed in the years since Jeff-sama’s ascent in his own divine prefecture - I have no idea how long initial import costs affect resales there.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

You’d certainly have a better idea of how Calvinu/Kisuru resale trends in Japan have changed in the years since Jeff-sama’s ascent in his own divine prefecture - I have no idea how long initial import costs affect resales there.

when my V220 arrived, i only had to pay applicable consumption tax, 8 percent

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Changing topic slightly:

What effects, if any, do you folks feel Jeff’s direction of the brand has had on Kiesel resale trends in recent years through to the present?

Up until around a year ago, eBay and Reverb listings had a way of giving the impression that the 22-pole pickups were products only you were hip to: You could always find sets of them for around $60 US, you never had to worry about string spacing, and you could always resell them for what you paid.

Same went for many of the base Carvin guitar models: Once the original owner took that initial 40-60% resale loss (regardless of how many times they included “owned by misha mansoor of periphery” in the title, body, and shipping fields), the build-quality and certainty the guitar wouldn’t depreciate much further were, to me, the reality of where the value of the Carvin brand rested and, in that respect, second-to-none. IMO, this alone is what fueled the general good will toward the brand; with the image of a small, family-operated custom shop that sold factory-direct merely reinforcing it.

There were many occasions between 2013-‘18 that I nearly pulled the plug on a sub-$800 Holdsworth guitar, and more occasions in which I bought a $40-$80 set of H22 pickups. The occasions in which I didn’t in-no-way reflected on the brand on a negative light. One of the best things you can say for a brand in the used market is to regard them as a “next time” purchase when you end up snagging a competing product instead.

At present, though...

The artificial scarcity of the 22-pole pickups caused by their announced perpetual discontinuation, combined with the span in which Lithium sales were artificially inflated by making them mandatory in new builds, has resulted in a flood of resold Jeff-Isn’t-Taking-His-Lithium set listings that, if anybody wanted, they’d likely already own them in a Kiesel guitar they were forced to include them in. And the ‘22 sets are either being hoarded or parted out individually at prices above competitors they were previously considered thrifty alternatives to.

Furthermore, Jeff’s abandonment of the 22-pole format, combined with an unwillingness to produce 12-pole bridge pickups in industry-standard F-spacing (at least since I last checked) means that I never even consider the occasional dozen crops of new listings of surplus Lithium or Parallax pickups, on the offchance that I’d have to replace them with something aesthetically-correct before selling the guitar.

And the used guitars? In the past three years, I’ve averaged a calendar month between NGDs and the “barely played mint” listings on this site and the auction sites. And the clown vomit-palette people dream up in the antiquated builder that only lets you imagine what a Kiesel Racing Blue Waffle Infection body combined with gold binding across the asymmetrical bevel that sits on top of the spalted body beforeyou agree to pay the build deposit has resulted in listings that should regularly be updated to include the cobwebs.

This creates situations in which someone curious about speccing out a custom Kiesel Priapus build in the decades-obsolete builder is confronted with a cost difference of more than a hundred percent between a new build that doesn’t look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations, and a used listing that does. The potential buyer decides that a 9-10 week build time leaves too many opportunities for regret, and ends up buying neither Kiesel product.

I contend that the regard of potential buyers walking away from a purchase with a “meh”, rather than a “next time” sentiment, is all Jeff Kiesel will be remembered for doing with his family’s legacy. And I feel the used market has finally filtered out enough of the past good will toward Carvin to reflect the present sentiment (whatever that may be to you).

I'm far from a Jeff Kiesel apologist, but credit where credit is due, he's done a lot of positives for the brand.

He's consolidated "dead weight" offerings, while still significantly expanding what is available from both a base model/shape standpoint and as far as customization options.

He's also made the brand far more popular and known to the regular player.

Lets not pretend Carvin was perfect.

 

[Snarpaasi]

That's true Jeff has made the brand more popular, but I doubt whether "all publicity is good publicity" statement holds. I think a brand is quite vulnerable if it's about one person, even though it is the ultimate dream of a pure narcissist. Jeff has his djent-boys whose builds "look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations" but I would assume he'd "show some respect" to his legacy. That doesn't mean you couldn't renew the business, but drifting away from high-quality, affordable semi-customs is/was their competitive advantage. Nowadays there are so many small yet growing and quite popular luthiers that there's no way I'd give my money to Jeff the douche.

Btw is the company's financial statements publicly available somewhere?

Disclaimer: I love my DC127 '09.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

That's true Jeff has made the brand more popular, but I doubt whether "all publicity is good publicity" statement holds. I think a brand is quite vulnerable if it's about one person, even though it is the ultimate dream of a pure narcissist. Jeff has his djent-boys whose builds "look like a dog ate a box of Christmas decorations" but I would assume he'd "show some respect" to his legacy. That doesn't mean you couldn't renew the business, but drifting away from high-quality, affordable semi-customs is/was their competitive advantage. Nowadays there are so many small yet growing and quite popular luthiers that there's no way I'd give my money to Jeff the douche.

Btw is the company's financial statements publicly available somewhere?

Disclaimer: I love my DC127 '09.

What percentage of guitarist or bassists care about who makes thier gear, let alone who owns the company that does?

We do, but we're definitely in the "guitar nerd" minority.

I also wouldn't say they're heading away from "high-quality, affordable semi-customs". Sure, it's easier than ever to deck out a DC to over $2500, but it's not like folks didn't occasionally do that before. The actual base prices haven't gone up too much relative to the rest of the industry.

 

[MatiasTolkki]

The problem with the price increases is that they completely wrecked the affordable V market. Why would I buy an Ultra V when I found my Charvel CRR for only 30,000 yen? I cna buy used Jackson USA RR1s for cheaper than speccing out an Ultra V/V220/X220 nowwadays. I could also hit the used market as well.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

The problem with the price increases is that they completely wrecked the affordable V market for my very specific situation.

FTFY

 

[MatiasTolkki]

FTFY

Yes, but if buying international becomes too expensive, why should I buy expensive stuff when I can find nice stuff for much cheaper?

And for the record, EVERYONE has a specific situation and as customers we are selfish and only consider our situations when purchasing. Acting like that's some sort of bad thing is misguided and wrong.

 

[MaxOfMetal]

Yes, but if buying international becomes too expensive, why should I buy expensive stuff when I can find nice stuff for much cheaper?

And for the record, EVERYONE has a specific situation and as customers we are selfish and only consider our situations when purchasing. Acting like that's some sort of bad thing is misguided and wrong.

You miss the point.

The price changes only effect a very, very small cross section of potential customers. Potential being the most important part.

It's not like they instituted increases that would scare off most buyers.

 

[spudmunkey]

In reference to resale, it seems that the last few years of increased exposure of the Kiesel brand to the money-spending age , and more of them leaning about how they relate to the old Carvin brand, seems to have increase the resale price of used Carvins.

I don't believe "scarcity of the 22-pole pickups" has yet to be an issue...since you can buy any you want still from Kiesel as parts, and still on factory builds. Perhaps some folks are hording them due to the impending scarcity?

I think a thing to keep in mind is that once a guitar is more than just a few years old, the trades start to slow down on them. Once they are "used" and no longer "like new", or 10+ years old, in my opinion anyway, they tend to find their forever home. Of course that's not always the case obviously, and of course there are exceptions...but with any brand that is still making instruments currently, I find that the vast majority of what's out there on the used market is newer. With Kiesel, you have an interesting scenario because 4 years ago they about stopped using one brand name, and started using another. So it'll be an interesting way to really quantify "old carvin vs new Kiesel" in a few years. What I mean is that Carvins are reaching the age where they are less likely to be traded back-and-forth and flipped, and are more likely settling into their "forever" homes. Again and again, I should clarify that this is only my own observation, but one I've had for a few years.

For the last few months though, it's been a strange time on my local Craigslist (in Kiesel's home state...not that it really matters but i feel like there's some benefit to being only a day's drive away from the factory and I know several people who made a detour to San Diego with their SoCal vacations, and there even used to be a store here in Sacramento which is a part of my Craigslist area range). There are currently 5 Carvins, and ZERO Kiesels listed. I'm not sure what to make of that. Ha! One of them is a 6-string LB with a quilted maple top going for $399, because he modified it to be a wide-spaced 6-string, but still has the old nut and bridge to include. A weird, weird time.

 

[Vinoo Matthew]

I wrote to Kiesel saying I wanted their S6 because I was looking for a Tele-style guitar. I asked them if they could switch their standard Hipshot bridge to a Hipshot Tele Bridge. Their reply, "We only install our bridges that we have. As for fitment of swapping it out, it doesn’t look like it will be the same, but it will cover the holes of the old bridge." So it's 'Take what we give, but hey, the one you want will cover the holes you don't want'. Their "Compare Pickups" page doesn't mention the word 'Lithium' anywhere (https://www.kieselguitars.com/pickups/). I asked for pickups that were similar to the front/back ones of a strat but not hotter, they suggested the S60As, which are described as "HIGHER OUTPUT THAN STRAT® PICKUPS". Hello? That is specifically NOT what I asked for. They didn't even suggest the 11-polepiece single that's listed. The 22 isn't even on the site anymore.

A waste of time

 

[MaxOfMetal]

I wrote to Kiesel saying I wanted their S6 because I was looking for a Tele-style guitar. I asked them if they could switch their standard Hipshot bridge to a Hipshot Tele Bridge. Their reply, "We only install our bridges that we have. As for fitment of swapping it out, it doesn’t look like it will be the same, but it will cover the holes of the old bridge." So it's 'Take what we give, but hey, the one you want will cover the holes you don't want'. Their "Compare Pickups" page doesn't mention the word 'Lithium' anywhere (https://www.kieselguitars.com/pickups/). I asked for pickups that were similar to the front/back ones of a strat but not hotter, they suggested the S60As, which are described as "HIGHER OUTPUT THAN STRAT® PICKUPS". Hello? That is specifically NOT what I asked for. They didn't even suggest the 11-polepiece single that's listed. The 22 isn't even on the site anymore.

A waste of time

Not quite sure what you were expecting really.

They told you that they weren't going to do a one-off bridge, which is responsible, said that if you really really really absolutely needed it you could fit one yourself and that it wouldn't leave any holes uncovered.

As for pickups, the ones they recommended are the closest to what you seem to be looking for. They just don't offer exactly what you want.

There are builders who will do exactly what you want, but you're going to have to pay a lot more.

Kiesel is more about semi-customs within thier offered options. They don't do full customs.

 

[Albake21]

Not quite sure what you were expecting really.

They told you that they weren't going to do a one-off bridge, which is responsible, said that if you really really really absolutely needed it you could fit one yourself and that it wouldn't leave any holes uncovered.

As for pickups, the ones they recommended are the closest to what you seem to be looking for. They just don't offer exactly what you want.

There are builders who will do exactly what you want, but you're going to have to pay a lot more.

Kiesel is more about semi-customs within thier offered options. They don't do full customs.

People really need to keep this in mind. They truly are just a semi-custom shop. They have options that you get to choose from. Not fully custom.

 

[spudmunkey]

The analogy I give folks unfamiliar is that kiesel is less like a personal chef and more like a pizza shop with a huge selection of crusts, sauces, cheeses, meats, and veggies...and you can even order one half-baked (badum-bum....a little dig on all those "half-baked" finish/wood combination ideas there...).

They might even be willing to make you a calzone, if they are slow or if the chef's in a good mood...and they'll even make you an oven-baked grinder if you send them the bread...but they can't make you pad thai if they don't have fish sauce and peanuts and it's not worth it to them to change the way they cook the food to source or work in ingredients that don't fit their efficiency model. But if you want a garlic-flavored, stuffed-crust pizza with 3 meats and a tomato and basil sauce and crimini mushrooms, you'll pay for it and it'll be pretty good and maybe even great...and if you want them to make you just a simple plain cheese pizza? They can make that too, and it'll still be a rockin' pizza at not-a-bad price.

 

[bostjan]

The analogy I give them is that of a pizza shop with a huge selection of crusts, sauces, cheeses, meats, and veggies...and you can even order one half-baked (badum-bum....a little dig on all those "half-baked" finish/wood combination ideas there...).

They might even be willing to make you a calzone, if they are slow or if the chef's in a good mood...and they'll even make you an oven-baked grinder if you send them the bread...but they can't make you pad thai if they don't have fish sauce and peanuts and it's not worth it to them to change the way they cook the food to source or work in ingredients that don't fit their efficiency model.

I was just typing almost that exact analogy when you posted...weird.