Why has Periphery had more commercial success than Monuments/Tesseract/Etc?

[bostjan]

I was responding to a guy saying metal bands have no career path, which is just wrong. Lots of bands have "made it" by metal standards after his arbitrary cutoff date. Many have more success than Periphery even without forum presences and fanboy militias.

as far as what's mainstream, you can just look at the Billboard chart. They account for all the modern ways of consuming music (traditional buys, radio play, streaming on most platforms, etc). Metal bands chart all the time. Babymetal's last album is the highest charting Japanese release in Billboard history... made #13 on the main chart.

Yet you proved my point by posting a list of bands no one really follows. And bringing up Billboard. Look at the year end hard rock charts for 2020! The top 13, yes, all of the top 13 best selling hard rock and heavy metal albums of 2020 were either compilations or reissues. And then >90% of the rest of the top 100 are, too.

Billboard.com/charts/year-end/hard-rock-albums

 

[sakeido]

Yet you proved my point by posting a list of bands no one really follows. And bringing up Billboard. Look at the year end hard rock charts for 2020! The top 13, yes, all of the top 13 best selling hard rock and heavy metal albums of 2020 were either compilations or reissues. And then >90% of the rest of the top 100 are, too.

Billboard.com/charts/year-end/hard-rock-albums

oh and a bunch of Five Finger Death Punch, who released their first album in 2007

 

[bostjan]

oh and a bunch of Five Finger Death Punch, who released their first album in 2007

If, by "a bunch" you mean their greatest hits that's got numerous covers of classic rock songs on it, well, um, not sure what your point is. They aren't a band formed post 2008, so they don't even match the one criteria I gave. Is there a single band on the billboard chart that does match the criteria, other than Babymetal?

Edit: go back to 2008 on the billboard site and check out the same list. Only two of the top ten that year were compilations or reissues that year, versus 10/10 for 2020. 2019 was a soundtrack, a Tool album, and eight compilations and reissues. 2018 similar to 2019. The trend from 2008 to 2017 is gradual, but paints a telling picture of hard rock and metal losing its presence and relying heavily on nostalgia.

 

[sakeido]

If, by "a bunch" you mean their greatest hits that's got numerous covers of classic rock songs on it, well, um, not sure what your point is. They aren't a band formed post 2008, so they don't even match the one criteria I gave. Is there a single band on the billboard chart that does match the criteria, other than Babymetal?

Edit: go back to 2008 on the billboard site and check out the same list. Only two of the top ten that year were compilations or reissues that year, versus 10/10 for 2020. 2019 was a soundtrack, a Tool album, and eight compilations and reissues. 2018 similar to 2019. The trend from 2008 to 2017 is gradual, but paints a telling picture of hard rock and metal losing its presence and relying heavily on nostalgia.

So your criteria is basically, compare a bunch of bands who have been around for <12 years to ones that have been around for 30 to 50+ years.

K. Sorry, that's dumb. A new FFDP album is at #18, you missed that.

 

[bostjan]

So your criteria is basically, compare a bunch of bands who have been around for <12 years to ones that have been around for 30 to 50+ years.

K. Sorry, that's dumb.

I said "Bands formed in 2008 or later really don't have a viable career path." Your response was "nope," then you gave a bunch of absolutely terrible examples of bands that have no where near the following bands pre-2007 had. You also pointed to the billboard charts, which was also a horrible example, since, as I pointed out, pre-2008 had new heavy music albums charting and 2020 does not, with a steady decline in between.

Comparing bands from 12 years ago with their sales data from 12 years ago relative to older bands then to what's happening now, and yes, you proved my point. What's dumb is how you jump headfirst into an argument with me without any valid points to support your conjecture that I'm full of shit, and then when I defend my original point, your response is "K. Sorry, that's dumb."

Babymetal's billboard chart performance, BTW: https://www.billboard.com/music/babymetal
One song that charted, as a special guest. A couple of their own that did on the hot 200.

 

[fantom]

So your criteria is basically, compare a bunch of bands who have been around for <12 years to ones that have been around for 30 to 50+ years.

K. Sorry, that's dumb. A new FFDP album is at #18, you missed that.

So how about compare bands who have been around less than 5 years to people like Billie Eilish then? You keep changing the rules. If you narrow down the list of artists to compare to bands that got famous on their debut album before they were 25 years old released in the last 2 years and from a specific city, but not the whole city because the zip code matters....oh and they must play Ibanez to count. And their personal phone numbers have to contain at least 3 zeros. Changing the goal post, anyone who owns a guitar will be successful as long as their mom listens to them.

It's worse for people getting into it thinking they're going to make arena money playing metal, but I think the reality of things being widely known has led to a lot more honest art and music, and it's also made (at least from what I've seen) a lot more locally-successful artists because we're getting back to the idea that you have to work from the bottom up and people are putting in the work. I remember around 2003-2010, there were sooooo many bands that were banking on "making it big" on the internet and just being rock stars and I don't really see that anymore, which to me is a good thing. There were tons of bands that lasted one EP because they didn't get the entirety of MySpace to love their three songs or whatever.

I feel like you just summarized my dislike of Trivium.

 

[bostjan]

A new FFDP album is at #18, you missed that.

The top 13, yes, all of the top 13 best selling hard rock and heavy metal albums of 2020 were either compilations or reissues. And then >90% of the rest of the top 100 are, too.

18 is not included in the top 13. One example in the top 100 is also not >10%. I'm not sure what your point is.

It's true that some bands like Ghost and 5FDP (who formed prior to 2008) and Babymetal (who I mentioned as a sole exception) are getting some success. If you say that all I have to do is check the billboard charts to see that I'm wrong, then you tell me, which metal band that formed post-2008 is charting? Simple as that. You set this one up pretty clearly.

 

[sakeido]

I said "Bands formed in 2008 or later really don't have a viable career path." Your response was "nope," then you gave a bunch of absolutely terrible examples of bands that have no where near the following bands pre-2007 had. You also pointed to the billboard charts, which was also a horrible example, since, as I pointed out, pre-2008 had new heavy music albums charting and 2020 does not, with a steady decline in between.

Your idea of a music career apparently starts at "biggest band in the genre" which simply isn't true. That's superstardom. I think you may need to look up what the word career actually means. You being mega ignorant and apparently not listening to any music at all, or reading any music sites, or even logging into Spotify one single time doesn't make them "terrible examples." You could go out and find a bunch more if you wanted, some of which will probably be better.

I'm gonna need some backup for why you drew the line at 2008, specifically. Why not 2020? If anything has actually made a career in metal impossible, it'd be COVID.

What's dumb is how you jump headfirst into an argument with me without any valid points to support your conjecture that I'm full of shit, and then when I defend my original point, your response is "K. Sorry, that's dumb."

Called it dumb because it is. I should have just gone with this:

Babymetal's billboard chart performance, BTW: https://www.billboard.com/music/babymetal
One song that charted, as a special guest. A couple of their own that did on the hot 200.

That shows songs, not albums, genius. You have to click a few more times to see their ALBUM charted #13.

 

[X1X]

It's just not a very good idea to allow compilation albums to the main charts. I do not know how charts are calculated in times of streaming. People like to listen to old hits. Back in the day they listened to the album they had bought years ago. Now they stream whatever comes up in the search results first. Making that first result "a new album" (=compilation) sounds like a good idea for the record companies, maybe...

 

[X1X]

I think having a good / unique! vocalist is the most important thing in terms of success. Complex rhythms and tricks won't get you that far. If you can play a Van Halen song you're a good enough guitarist. Being more technical will probably just hurt your changes of success. Songwriting is the key.

 

[bostjan]

Your idea of a music career apparently starts at "biggest band in the genre" which simply isn't true. That's superstardom. I think you may need to look up what the word career actually means. You being mega ignorant and apparently not listening to any music at all, or reading any music sites, or even logging into Spotify one single time doesn't make them "terrible examples." You could go out and find a bunch more if you wanted, some of which will probably be better.

I'm gonna need some backup for why you drew the line at 2008, specifically. Why not 2020? If anything has actually made a career in metal impossible, it'd be COVID.



Called it dumb because it is. I should have just gone with this:
View attachment 90585


That shows songs, not albums, genius. You have to click a few more times to see their ALBUM charted #13.

Why do I care? I already admitted Babymetal was the exception, right off the bat, and I never said the link was to albums. Maybe you are so angry at me, for saying that there's no money in metal anymore, that you aren't able to follow along or whatever.

My point was that no bands formed after 2008, except Babymetal, have viable careers in metal. I think your responses to me only go on to support that statement. Evidently, you think otherwise, so whatever. Your examples of successful bands that formed post-2008 and aren't Babymetal are: Five Finger Death Punch and Babymetal.

The other bands you posted are probably very successful by today's standards, but I think we probably all agree (maybe except just you) that none of those bands have anywhere near the success that what we would have called "successful metal bands" had more than 12 years ago.

Why not 2020? Easy, because there's a reason, other than that the genre stopped being successful, to explain why the year sucked for bands. Why did 2019 suck for metal bands, though? Why 2008? Good question. I'm not claiming to have all of the answers.

 

[GunpointMetal]

It's just not a very good idea to allow compilation albums to the main charts. I do not know how charts are calculated in times of streaming. People like to listen to old hits. Back in the day they listened to the album they had bought years ago. Now they stream whatever comes up in the search results first. Making that first result "a new album" (=compilation) sounds like a good idea for the record companies, maybe...

This is why a lot of pop and rap artists are releasing "bonus editions" of the same album or releasing singles and then tacking a couple extra songs to it and calling it *insert name of single* bonus EP edition, or whatever. They can stretch one productive recording session into 4-5 "releases" to keep new stuff at the top of the lists, even if its really just old stuff with a different remix or something.

I think having a good / unique! vocalist is the most important thing in terms of success. Complex rhythms and tricks won't get you that far. If you can play a Van Halen song you're a good enough guitarist. Being more technical will probably just hurt your changes of success. Songwriting is the key.

A unique vocalist and all the songwriting prowess in the world won't get you shit if you can't throw money into advertising and promotion.

 

[X1X]

New metal bands no longer write good songs and throaty vocals won't get you far. They overthink songwriting. I haven't heard a metal song that would feel like it had potential for success in ages. Megadeth's Dystopia was ok. Nothing else comes to mind. I would be surprised if Metallica got anywhere with their new songs. The top pop songwriters still know how to write sometimes (Hello by Adele for example).

Modern metal production is not good. People do not like when all the frequencies are filled. You need SPACE! The latest Tesseract album had a little better production but 99.999% is quite bad (just my opinion). People like pleasant music and can extend their comfort zone only so far. Modern aggressive tones and vocals are too far especially when the frequencies are "optimally" filled. My favorite album in terms of production is Megadeth's original mix of Countdown to Extinction (I wouldn't like all albums to sound like that though).

Then there are other issues. Tesseract would potentially be a hit, but they have that weird emo feel to the vocal melodies.

Just my random opinions. I admit I could be wrong.

 

[sakeido]

Maybe you are so angry at me, for saying that there's no money in metal anymore, that you aren't able to follow along or whatever.

Nah you just said something egregiously dumb so I've called you out on it.

My point was that no bands formed after 2008, except Babymetal, have viable careers in metal. I think your responses to me only go on to support that statement. Evidently, you think otherwise, so whatever. Your examples of successful bands that formed post-2008 and aren't Babymetal are: Five Finger Death Punch and Babymetal.

Babymetal was your example, not mine. I only chimed in to say they have some good songs and point out to another guy who thought they were already over, that their last album was still a hit.

The other bands you posted are probably very successful by today's standards, but I think we probably all agree (maybe except just you) that none of those bands have anywhere near the success that what we would have called "successful metal bands" had more than 12 years ago

that's fine, except since I actually go out to these shows I've noticed a lot of these upcoming successful bands are playing the exact same venues to the same numbers of people as those successful bands from 12 years ago... maybe we don't have outliers like Gojira and Lamb of God this time around, oh no wait Deafheaven plays packed big shows never mind. I'm not even sure if you're referring to nu metal bands at this point, because 2008 was well into the period they were on life support or gone altogether.

instead of using the word "successful" maybe say what you actually mean, which is "I don't like any of these bands today." It's not metal's fault you're entirely out of touch

Why not 2020? Easy, because there's a reason, other than that the genre stopped being successful, to explain why the year sucked for bands. Why did 2019 suck for metal bands, though? Why 2008? Good question. I'm not claiming to have all of the answers.

this is just straight nonsense. I mean, you pulled 2008 out of your ass, so you at least have to explain why. I'm sure it's because your argument gets worse and worse each year you move it back... not that 2008 has worked out for you, but whatever

 

[fantom]

The trend from 2008 to 2017 is gradual, but paints a telling picture of hard rock and metal losing its presence and relying heavily on nostalgia.

Just a theory, if the ratings of metal on Billboard charts started to decline in 2008, that is right after Metalocalypse and Dethklok was widely successful with the non-metal crowd. I know more people who listened to Dethklok and saw them on tour those first few years than any other band mentioned on this thread with the exception of maybe Linkin Park.

The other bands you posted are probably very successful by today's standards, but I think we probably all agree (maybe except just you) that none of those bands have anywhere near the success that what we would have called "successful metal bands" had more than 12 years ago.

The bands he mentioned are mostly unknown. I get it. When I was young, I thought everyone knew of bands like Emperor or At the Gates. Now more people know who Ola is than The Haunted.

 

[bostjan]

Nah you just said something egregiously dumb so I've called you out on it.


Babymetal was your example, not mine. I only chimed in to say they have some good songs and point out to another guy who thought they were already over, that their last album was still a hit.


that's fine, except since I actually go out to these shows I've noticed a lot of these upcoming successful bands are playing the exact same venues to the same numbers of people as those successful bands from 12 years ago... maybe we don't have outliers like Gojira and Lamb of God this time around, oh no wait Deafheaven plays packed big shows never mind. I'm not even sure if you're referring to nu metal bands at this point, because 2008 was well into the period they were on life support or gone altogether.

instead of using the word "successful" maybe say what you actually mean, which is "I don't like any of these bands today." It's not metal's fault you're entirely out of touch


this is just straight nonsense. I mean, you pulled 2008 out of your ass, so you at least have to explain why. I'm sure it's because your argument gets worse and worse each year you move it back... not that 2008 has worked out for you, but whatever

Stop talking to me like your going through a bout of roid rage, man. It's not helping your case.

My experience has been totally different. I haven't seen any shows in the last year that weren't virtual, and before that, I'm just not experiencing the same thing as you. For example, I saw Moontooth a couple years ago, who are getting decent airplay for a metal band, and, other than the three people who went with me, the venue staff, and the opening act, there were literally seven other people there. The last live metal show I saw before Covid was a local band and even they had about twice that many people show up to see them. I had seen Dream Theater over a dozen times, playing in a parking lot to about 70 people, building their audience up, and playing big amatheaters that held thousands, to sometime around Gigantour, then the next time they came by, they were in a little movie theater of like 500 people. The last time I saw them, they were playing in a venue that held maybe a thousand people, and I had to drive several hours to get there, because they were doing fewer dates.

I've also been on tour a couple times somewhat recently and many times (with a different band) long ago, and attendance at my shows and my friend's bands' shows are nowhere near what they used to be. Shows used to pay pretty well, but in the couple years before covid, most pay nothing. Merch sales are still sometimes okay, but it's less consistent than it used to be.

Maybe the older generation is slowing down and the newer generation is disinterested. Numetal was huge, in terms of listenership, but it basically ended in the early 2000's, but you still have bands like Disturbed doing well. Metalcore came and went since then and now Djent is basically what's left. I don't even think the average joe on the street even knows what the hell djent is. Even with all that said, djent stirred up the late 2000's a little, but there hasn't been a new grass roots movement involving metal for ten years.

I'm glad Deafheaven is doing so well, raking in the huge piles of cash from selling those 10000ish copies of their full length albums. I'll admit that's more than I expected to see. If they net $5 each, that's $10k per member, definitely enough to constitute a viable career if they are also selling out huge stadiums.

As for everything else you said, I don't even get your point. It's like you just want to argue. I'm fine with that, but just pick a coherent point and we'll discuss it, rather than just vaguely saying I'm dumb or paraphrasing what you probably didn't even read me saying and trying to make it sound stupid.

 

[Themistocles]

boy band vibes...

 

[Ordacleaphobia]

I'm just hilariously amused at this whole back-and-forth inside of a thread about a metal band that managed to turn their band into a full time career. Who cares if they aren't making Metallica money- they make enough to pay their bills and then some. How is that 'not a career path'? I went to college, the TEXTBOOK career path, got my degree, and I promise you they make more money than I do in office hell.

As long as folks can make a living, I 100% don't understand the argument.
Sure, your djent band Pluralisms is not going to make Linkin Park money. Because times change, more genres get added, and the mainstream expands. The more the mainstream expands, the less 'room' there is for niche options. Metal was always niche, and it probably always will be.

Something else too is that we're sitting here harping on charts and comparing numbers to modern popular acts, and not considering relative success for those at the high end that we're comparing to. As time moves on, your pop mega-icons are just going to continue to be more successful than their predecessors. More people, more listeners, more sales, more streams, more downloads. I'd bet you that the people consistently hitting the billboard top 10 today are making more than the people consistently hitting the billboard top 10 in the last decade or two, and the gap between them and whoever your favorite band is is larger than ever and will continue to expand. That doesn't take away from your favorite band's success at all.

sevenstring gunna sevenstring.

 

[bostjan]

I'm just hilariously amused at this whole back-and-forth inside of a thread about a metal band that managed to turn their band into a full time career. Who cares if they aren't making Metallica money- they make enough to pay their bills and then some. How is that 'not a career path'? I went to college, the TEXTBOOK career path, got my degree, and I promise you they make more money than I do in office hell.

As long as folks can make a living, I 100% don't understand the argument.
Sure, your djent band Pluralisms is not going to make Linkin Park money. Because times change, more genres get added, and the mainstream expands. The more the mainstream expands, the less 'room' there is for niche options. Metal was always niche, and it probably always will be.

Something else too is that we're sitting here harping on charts and comparing numbers to modern popular acts, and not considering relative success for those at the high end that we're comparing to. As time moves on, your pop mega-icons are just going to continue to be more successful than their predecessors. More people, more listeners, more sales, more streams, more downloads. I'd bet you that the people consistently hitting the billboard top 10 today are making more than the people consistently hitting the billboard top 10 in the last decade or two, and the gap between them and whoever your favorite band is is larger than ever and will continue to expand. That doesn't take away from your favorite band's success at all.

sevenstring gunna sevenstring.

We've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, though. Misha himself has said that the music-making side of it doesn't pay his bills. Just about everybody in a metal band has a side gig or dayjob or comes from money or a combination of those. The exceptions are almost entirely from bands that were established before the bottom started falling out of the economy.

 

[sakeido]

As for everything else you said, I don't even get your point. It's like you just want to argue. I'm fine with that, but just pick a coherent point and we'll discuss it, rather than just vaguely saying I'm dumb or paraphrasing what you probably didn't even read me saying and trying to make it sound stupid.

just gonna cut it down to this. I asked for pretty specific things and you failed to deliver, completely. Pardon me for getting really annoyed.

1) what you define as a "career"
2) who exactly are the 2008 era successful bands you're using as a yardstick
3) why did you pick 2008

Your anecdotes... Moon Tooth has a small fraction the following of those other bands I listed. I'm assuming that was their headline tour? I don't think that was a very good idea at that stage in their career. I've never heard of them but as far as I can tell they have critical appreciation but not very many listeners. You need both. Dream Theater is playing smaller and smaller venues because they're at least 15 years past their last good album, which was itself 15 years after "Pull Me Under." And to answer anecdotes with more anecdotes, all my buddies who were DT fans are completely over them these days. The Astonishing was the last straw.

We've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, though. Misha himself has said that the music-making side of it doesn't pay his bills. Just about everybody in a metal band has a side gig or dayjob or comes from money or a combination of those. The exceptions are almost entirely from bands that were established before the bottom started falling out of the economy.

The band is the platform that makes these other things possible... Misha ain't the only guy to make that work