Game of Thrones

[KnightBrolaire]

To your 3rd point:

Spoiler

While it doesn't prove Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, it hints this is most likely what happened since at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Rhaegar gave the victor's wreath (crown of winter roses) to Lyanna Stark. Lyanna is said to love winter roses -- some fans believe Rhaegar even made it ahead of time specifically for her (knowing he had a good chance of winning the tournament).

To quote Ned Stark's dream:


And according to tradition in the Seven Kingdoms, when a winner dedicates his victory to a woman by giving her the crown of roses, it is usually a woman he loves and/or intends to court. This would explain why "all the smiles died" since it is scandalous to do this when 1) the woman is already married or 2) you are already married.

That would also explain why the marriage was in secret because it was "frowned upon".

Again, I'm not saying this is absolute fact but I think it's difficult to say otherwise.

I was just about to cite that part too. I find it highly improbable that littlefinger would have had a relationship with lyanna and she kept it a secret from ned. Plus, if Jon was related to littlefinger there would likely be some similarity in appearance, and they wouldn't have wasted so much time teasing us about lyanna/rhaegar. That would be one of the most unexpected but also asinine twists in a show since Andrea got killed off in Walking Dead.

 

[SD83]

Dammit, I AM. Still, that's hardly the most important reason to discount the R+L=J thing. It just makes Littlefinger a smidge less likely.

I was just about to say according to book sources he might have been too young to do that, but apparently 15 year old Petyr Baelish had gotten Lysa Tully pregnant around that time, so after being sent back to the Fingers after his defeat by Brandon Stark, who knows what he did. He doesn't strike me as someone who might win the heart of the kind of woman Lyanna Stark is described as (or, in fact, any woman), but apparently he was still very close with Lysa even after her marriage, so while I do not (yet) doubt Jons parents, I now wonder if Robert/Robin Arryn is actually Littlefingers son.

 

[Drew]

I think we're getting side tracked here.

Spoiler

I said for a while I considered the possibility that Jon might be Littlefinger's son, and that it presents some interesting dramatic possibilities. I don't know if I think it's terribly likely, though, and the (more important) crux of the argument I'm making is this:

Given that R+L=J is an extremely popular fan theory, given that we're running out of episodes and plot time is valuable, and given GRRM's and the show's love of massively shocking plot twists, I think it's extremely suspicious that we've been given fairly concrete evidence that Lyanna is Jon's mother, but instead only a whole slew of hints that Rhaegar is Jon's father. Considering we're down to one episode and then one more shortened season, and considering virtually everyone who watches the show is taking it for granted Rhaegar is Jon's father, why are they dragging it out rather than just confirming it and moving on? Why not have just had Lyanna tell Ned that Rhaegar was the father when Ned found her?

Leave Littlefinger out of it for now, though I think it's also very interesting that Littlefinger knows who Jon's parents are but Varys does not, even if I still don't know quite what to make of that.

 

[bpprox22]

Spoiler

The wait is probably so we can see the look on Jon's face when he realizes he did the dirty (presumably, it will happen) with his smokin' aunt

 

[KnightBrolaire]

Spoiler

The wait is probably so we can see the look on Jon's face when he realizes he did the dirty (presumably, it will happen) with his smokin' aunt

nah he'll probably be like "doesn't matter- still smashed, would smash again"

 

[Xaios]

Spoiler

While that episode was awesome to watch (and had some really stellar special effects to boot), it's certainly problematic in retrospect. Others have already brought up a) the teleporting issue, and b) the Night King choosing to spear Viserion, a moving target that was farther away, instead of Drogon, a stationary and vulnerable target being ridden by the Dragon Queen.

Honestly though, there's something else: we know that the Night's King can apparently throw a spear like a God, so why wouldn't he just pick them off from afar? We know that he wasn't simply content to let them die of exposure given how the zombies closed in once they knew that the ice would support them.

 

[wankerness]

We can all stop spoilering the events of the episode once it's aired IMHO, anyone that's reading this thread that hasn't watched it that isn't expecting to get spoilered is a dope. It certainly would have been called for if you were talking about it after watching that leaked version ahead of time, though!!

Anyway, the Night King didn't pick them off from afar cause that wouldn't have been cool. This episode was all about COOL EVENTS over any form of logic whatsoever. It was a lot of bad writing. It was exciting to watch.

Besides everything with Sansa/Arya, of course. If this was a plot to kill Littlefinger somehow, that would probably redeem it.

Anyway, for some unoriginal content:

Art Deco • 3 days ago


Jon Snow, bailed out more times than the US auto industry:

1) Beyond The Wall by Qhorin Halfhand.
2) At The Wall by Stannis and his army
3) At Castle Black by Melisandre after being stabbed to death
4) At Winterfell by the Knights of the Vale
5) Beyond The Wall again by Dany & her dragons
6) Beyond The Wall yet again by Coldhands Benjen

Perhaps the worst military strategist depicted on TV.

Agog ->Art Deco • 3 days ago


Ygritte really was right.

 

[bostjan]

Spoiler

I mean, not to mention that whilst the dragons were roasting the entire hoarde of footsoldiers, not a single White Walker was targetted. If Drogon would have simply faced the small group of White Walkers and went full flame on, the main antagonist of the series would have been wiped out permanently, and then we could watch Bron farming for the entire next season

I spoilerize in case someone who has not seen the latest episode wanders in here to say something.

 

[bpprox22]

Spoiler

 

[Xaios]

Jon Snow, bailed out more times than the US auto industry:

1) Beyond The Wall by Qhorin Halfhand.
2) At The Wall by Stannis and his army
3) At Castle Black by Melisandre after being stabbed to death
4) At Winterfell by the Knights of the Vale
5) Beyond The Wall again by Dany & her dragons
6) Beyond The Wall yet again by Coldhands Benjen

Perhaps the worst military strategist depicted on TV.

As the old saying goes, it's better to be lucky than good.

 

[SD83]

Anyway, the Night King didn't pick them off from afar cause that wouldn't have been cool. This episode was all about COOL EVENTS over any form of logic whatsoever. It was a lot of bad writing. It was exciting to watch.

I agree to some extend. Drogon seemed the much better target, way closer, not moving, obviously more important to his enemies. The war would have basically been over there and then. But does he want that? Or did he just want them to leave and leave him alone? Right now I'm just assuming that the Night King and the White Walkers want to get to the other side of The Wall and wipe out all of mankind, but... do they?
As for throwing the spear at those tiny humans before the dragons even arrive: Besides being much smaller targets that might or might not be able to dodge a spear at that distance if they see him throwing, I don't think he has that many of those spears at hand. Those ice weapons of them might be at least as rare as valyrian steel. If only four or so of those exist north of the wall, they'd better not waste a single one.
But then again, you might be totally right and I might be reading way too much into these things

 

[bostjan]

Unfortunately, I've seen this with other television programmes as well - the further away from source material they go, the lazier the writing gets. Jon has the ultimate teleportation and Ex Machina tools at his whim. At some point this will get frustrating enough that I could stop watching, but we are still far from that point for how much time I have invested in this now.

 

[wankerness]

I don't think he has that many of those spears at hand. Those ice weapons of them might be at least as rare as valyrian steel. If only four or so of those exist north of the wall, they'd better not waste a single one.

Somehow I don't think ice is in short supply north of the wall

 

[SD83]

Somehow I don't think ice is in short supply north of the wall

True, but average ice doesn't make for good weapons. I don't think they can just grab any piece of ice and it becomes a magical super weapon, shattering regular steel and such.

 

[bostjan]

So here's a question:

Spoiler

If fire kills wights, how can a wight dragon work? Does it breathe ice crystals or something?

If a wight dragon can breathe fire, then I guess it's fireproof. Since all other weapons that kill wights come from dragon's fire (Valerian steel and dragonglass), how would you take down a wight dragon other than killing the Night's King?

 

[MFB]

So here's a question:

Spoiler

If fire kills wights, how can a wight dragon work? Does it breathe ice crystals or something?

If a wight dragon can breathe fire, then I guess it's fireproof. Since all other weapons that kill wights come from dragon's fire (Valerian steel and dragonglass), how would you take down a wight dragon other than killing the Night's King?

Spoiler

I'm imagining it works like Superman's frost breath, where its so cold, whatever it makes contact with freezes. Ice wouldn't work as a breathable element, so that's feasibly the inverse of fire-breathing? I feel like for killing it though, it will now follow the same rule as other wights and it wont die until the Night King does.

 

[vividox]

Dammit, I AM. Still, that's hardly the most important reason to discount the R+L=J thing. It just makes Littlefinger a smidge less likely.

People are still trying to diffuse R+L=J? The show has confirmed it.

We also have no evidence that Littlefinger was in Lyanna's presence at any point - ever. He grew up in Riverrun with the Tully's until he challenged Brandon Stark for Catelyn. He then went back to the Vale. It wasn't until after Robert's Rebellion (i.e. after Lyanna's death) that he ingratiated himself into Jon Arryn's service (by manipulating Lysa Arryn, who always wanted Littlefinger), moved to King's Landing, became Master of Coin, and began playing the game of thrones. We know he wasn't at Harrenhal when Lyanna was kidnapped, and there is no reason to believe he would have run into her at any other time for any other reason. To top this all off, Petyr (born 268) was 13 years old when Lyanna was "abducted" (Tourney of Harrenhal was 281) - the rest of Lyanna's life was lived in Dorne. Littlefinger being Jon's dad is straight up not possible.

 

[vividox]

So here's a question:

Spoiler

If fire kills wights, how can a wight dragon work? Does it breathe ice crystals or something?

If a wight dragon can breathe fire, then I guess it's fireproof. Since all other weapons that kill wights come from dragon's fire (Valerian steel and dragonglass), how would you take down a wight dragon other than killing the Night's King?

Spoiler

I don't think the dragon is a wight. It was touched by the Night King himself, and reminded me a lot of him turning Craster's kids into actual White Walkers. I think it's a full-fledged dragon white walker. And I think it'd also be susceptible to dragonglass.

That being said, I'd be shocked if the dragon doesn't breath ice.

 

[MFB]

People are still trying to diffuse R+L=J? The show has confirmed it.

If you mean the Tower of Joy scene, that still doesn't confirm as we never went into the tower with the two and saw Jon being born. It's been implied, but not confirmed.

 

[vividox]

If you mean the Tower of Joy scene, that still doesn't confirm as we never went into the tower with the two and saw Jon being born. It's been implied, but not confirmed.

I don't know how much more evidence you could ask for...

Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna.
Rhaegar annulled his marriage and married Lyanna in secret.
Lyanna was guarded by Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy.
By all appearances, Lyanna died of complications from childbirth.

Thinking that Lyanna isn't the mother - she just coincidentally had abdominal hemorrhaging and Kingsguard protecting her - is ridiculous.
Thinking that Rhaegar isn't the father - the Kingsguard just coincidentally decided to throw their lives away to protect the bastard child of Rhaegar's wife - is ridiculous.

The books are named A Song of Ice and Fire, for R'hllor's sake.

Saying we don't have proof here is kind of like saying I don't have proof that my parents are actually my parents because I don't remember being born.