Game of Thrones

[PunkBillCarson]

Spoiler

It seemed pretty obvious that Arya was going to be the one that killed the Knight King. My main gripe is that they chose to make her a dumb super hero. Instead of using the skills she would have learned training with the most legendary assassin guild on their planet. I was rooting for her to figure out how to change faces with a white walker or something to get close enough to kill him. Instead a 5 foot tall teenage girl goes 1 vs 30 on super zombies, then later just straight suicide rushes in to the Big Show NK's chokeslam and drops the blade to her other hand and stabs him.

Spoiler

I'm not even upset that they did that, I'm more upset at the fact that the NK has been portrayed as an all powerful tactician only to fall into a trap like that. Surely he had to have realized that getting to Bran was simply too easy? Lazy on the writer's part.

 

[Drew]

Spoiler

I'm not even upset that they did that, I'm more upset at the fact that the NK has been portrayed as an all powerful tactician only to fall into a trap like that. Surely he had to have realized that getting to Bran was simply too easy? Lazy on the writer's part.

Spoiler: not sure I agree

where was he portrayed as an expert tactician though? He's sort of an immutable force, true... But there isn't much tactical about what he's done. I don't remember if he was at the Fist of the First men in the show (he doesn't exist in the books) but there's nothing particularly tactical about that assault, and a decent number of the Night's Watch escape that. The scene at the lake, the dead basically just surround an island and wait, and his major win in that one is he just throws a javelin at a dragon, killing it and then raising it as a wight. The most "tactical" thing he does is choose a fairly good spot to cut through the Wall with Dragonfire, but even then if he was bound for Winterfell and Bran you have to wonder why they chose Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and not the Shadow Tower, since that was on the complete wrong direction from the Craster's Keep/Castle Black area where we knew they were at some point.

Idunno. Massive unyielding force of nature, sure. But the Night's King seems to me to have all the tactical finesse of a glacier.

 

[mongey]

Spoiler: hhmm

One thing i think is interesting is how integral the lord of light and the red woman were to it all. basically without lord of light the NK wins . Berric was begin revived soley to save Aria in the library .the red woman knew that aria would be the one to kill NK

Dothraki - it just seemed like they were superfluous to the story and need to get rid of them all in one quick swipe . the tactic just made no sense

and sam spazzing out in the battle was just a bad decision .makes no sense for him to be there at all .

 

[wankerness]

How was Melisandre integral? She does two things that are almost immediately snuffed out by the baddies and she tells Arya something that apparently was going to happen anyway!

Oh well, I was glad to see Carice Van Houten and her boingy walk again.

 

[mongey]

How was Melisandre integral? She does two things that are almost immediately snuffed out by the baddies and she tells Arya something that apparently was going to happen anyway!

Oh well, I was glad to see Carice Van Houten and her boingy walk again.

she brought back john snow from the dead to lead the armies

that is why she could bring him back.I mean integral to the whole thing. not just the battle

 

[Seabeast2000]

Well, by elimination, they were either fighting for Winterfell, or fighting for the Night's King, if they were anywhere in the area.

good enough, I just didn't see them anywhere specific or forgot what the looked like. Probably missed a plot point a few seasons ago....

 

[PunkBillCarson]

Spoiler: not sure I agree

where was he portrayed as an expert tactician though? He's sort of an immutable force, true... But there isn't much tactical about what he's done. I don't remember if he was at the Fist of the First men in the show (he doesn't exist in the books) but there's nothing particularly tactical about that assault, and a decent number of the Night's Watch escape that. The scene at the lake, the dead basically just surround an island and wait, and his major win in that one is he just throws a javelin at a dragon, killing it and then raising it as a wight. The most "tactical" thing he does is choose a fairly good spot to cut through the Wall with Dragonfire, but even then if he was bound for Winterfell and Bran you have to wonder why they chose Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and not the Shadow Tower, since that was on the complete wrong direction from the Craster's Keep/Castle Black area where we knew they were at some point.

Idunno. Massive unyielding force of nature, sure. But the Night's King seems to me to have all the tactical finesse of a glacier.

Spoiler

It was certainly more tactical than anything anyone else has done. You don't get an army comprised of wights, White Walkers, a giant, and a dragon without some degree of planning. Not to mention, nearly every single time the NK has shown up, he's caught people with their pants down, merely adding to it. Still, I cannot believe the NK would fall for what he did.

 

[Lorcan Ward]

That was a wonderful inconsistent mess of an episode but it was very entertaining for sure. It was too Hollywood-esque and didn't feel much like GOT. It's a very different show when you go back and look at the writing, acting, dialogue etc of older seasons. I suppose that's down to lack of source material and shifting the tone of the show to a wider TV audience.

Spoiler

i can't believe they resolved the Long Night and army of the dead so quickly. It feels a little anticlimactic knowing that cersei is next and the army of the dead never make it past Winterfell. I'm in shock at that one. Maybe there is more! We know there is a prequel show about the Long Night on the works.

 

[diagrammatiks]

meh that episode was bad and it should feel bad. But there's 3 more episodes left.
Maybe there's something really tricky coming next time

Spoiler: Spoilers

Although if we are talking about subverting viewer and genre expectations...

you thought everyone was gonna die? no one really dies
you thought this conflict was going to be several episodes long? it's done
you thought the crypt wights was too obvious to happen? it's happening

ehhhh

 

[beerandbeards]

I still have so many questions about the NK.... I hope some stuff is explained in the next episodes

 

[Lorcan Ward]

I think that might be it and the prequel show will delve into him more. I'm not sure if it's common knowledge but the Night King was created for the show so they have no source material to reference.

 

[jaxadam]

I'm not sure if it's common knowledge but the Night King was created for the show so they have no source material to reference.

I did not know that...

 

[wankerness]

she brought back john snow from the dead to lead the armies

that is why she could bring him back.I mean integral to the whole thing. not just the battle

Ah. I thought you meant to the episode.

 

[Seabeast2000]

That was a wonderful inconsistent mess of an episode but it was very entertaining for sure. It was too Hollywood-esque and didn't feel much like GOT. It's a very different show when you go back and look at the writing, acting, dialogue etc of older seasons. I suppose that's down to lack of source material and shifting the tone of the show to a wider TV audience.

Avengers will be coming in to help against Cersei at the very end of Ep 6. All remaining arcs are left hanging forever and nothing is resolved as they brought David Lindeloff in as head writer of Eps 4-6.

 

[wankerness]

People love to still trash him, but his finale for The Leftovers more than makes up for the Lost one. Unlike truly horrible screenwriters (Akiva Goldsman, for example) he actually learned from his mistakes, listened to feedback, and grew!

 

[Drew]

I did not know that...

In the books, they're Others, not White Walkers, and if they have any sort of leader we haven't seen it yet. The names are pretty cosmetic, they're definitely a little less human looking in the books (taller, thinner, less wizened) but that's minor... But giving them a leader and a "major" bad guy is a pretty big departure, especially since it pretty much negates any possibility of the books ending in the same manner as the show, with respect to the Others...

Spoiler

It was certainly more tactical than anything anyone else has done. You don't get an army comprised of wights, White Walkers, a giant, and a dragon without some degree of planning. Not to mention, nearly every single time the NK has shown up, he's caught people with their pants down, merely adding to it. Still, I cannot believe the NK would fall for what he did.

Spoiler: still not convinced

Why not? The Night's King can create other White Walkers, and is both extremely hard to kill, and can raise dead. Combined, that gets you a team a White Walkers following you and an army of undead pretty quickly. Undead can kill giants, and giants can be raised, as we learned at Hardhome, so that gets you a bunch of undead giants pretty quickly too. And the dragon was just taken down with an ice javelin, which wasn't exactly a tactical triumph so much as a really good throw, and was raised the same as the dead men, giants, horses, and bears. Given the Night King's being hard to kill and a dangerous enough fighter, and able to raise the dead, it'd be more remarkable if he WASN'T at the head of a giant undead army than if he was.

Really, the tactical decisions we've seen him make have mostly involved taking advantage of the fact that he has a mindless army that's already dead and isn't worried so much about drowning or burning.

 

[Emperor Guillotine]

As someone who works in TV and film production, I would definitely praise this weeks' episode from a technical standpoint in the production and post-production. This episode might possibly go down as something incredibly notable in TV history.

With that said, I'm relieved to read that I'm not the only one who was experiencing issues with the image quality while watching the episode. I had to pause the episode and adjust the settings on my projector, which I have never had to do before. Also, is it just me or did the audio seem to be mixed incredibly low in post on the episode?

Regarding the Night King:

Spoiler

I am thoroughly disappointed at how this guy was played up to be this ultimate, unstoppable force of true evil for seven seasons...only to be killed off in less than an hour in a half...and by a single stab from a young girl. What a disappointment. But considering that the Night King doesn't even exist in the book series, I guess I can't really say that I held out much hope for the demise of his character to be spectacular. I mean, his creation/inception was also a thorough disappointment when viewers learned about it onscreen via Bran time-traveling with Bloodraven.

Regarding Samwell Tarley:

Spoiler

He advocated for the first two episode of this season that he wanted to fight. And he did absolutely nothing but snivel during the full episode. What a disappointment.

I also thought that Sam, Jon, or one of the other black brothers would at least present some of their battle strategies utilized at Castle Black and Eastwatch by the Sea. Example: covering the walls with oil to light on fire, or flinging barrels of oil onto wights so that a flaming arrow could light them up. But nope. This didn't happen.

GRRM is a fan of reader subversion. He would kill off your favorite character for no reason. No one was safe. Ned Stark was the first and prime example. No one was safe from being killed off because part of the underlying moral of the story of the ASOIAF series can be condensed down to: "war is hell". So why not kill Sam? He has been magically gifted such thick plot armor this season all of a sudden.

Regarding Beric Dondarrion:

Spoiler

It actually bummed me out that he finally died in this episode. But then again, Thoros of Myr wasn't around to revive him for the "19th time".

My issue with Beric is that he was a great plot device in the ASOIAF book series, and yet the TV series reduces him to nothing. In the book series, he died after his 7th time, in which he gave his life to revive Catelyn Stark (who became Lady Stoneheart) who joined the Brotherhood Without Banners before splitting off and leading her own factioned alliance. Does any of this exist in the TV series? Nope. But it plays a big role in the book series.

So many other characters should've died in that war at Winterfell. Jaime and Brienne were backed up against a wall by a horde of wights for Christ's sake. Thormund was literally left on his own against a horde. And what ever happened to Grey Worm? Or what ever happened to Podrick Payne?

When Jon was walking through Winterfell towards the end, all you see are named characters emerging from the carnage. Did no unnamed characters survive? Only the handful of names ones. Seems kind of fishy... Come on, writers...

Regarding the poor writing that is plaguing GOT:

Spoiler

Honestly, there isn't an excuse for how loose, sloppy, and messy the writing has gotten on the TV series.

With that said, keep in mind that David Benioff and D.B. Weiss who are the creators, execs, and showrunners have to sign off on final scripts, yet the two are literally so fucking rushed on this series. Like, when production starts, they have to handle production management (whatever isn't delegated to line producers or production managers). Then one of the two guys, or at least one of the writers, is ALWAYS present on-set over in Europe to supervise things. Then as soon as production for a season wraps, they are overseeing post-production (story, editing, audio, etc.) while simultaneously working on scripts for the next upcoming season, shuffling around writers, etc. They do all of this while concurrently handling your basic executive producer and showrunner duties, which include marketing, promotion, distribution, deliverables, etc. (Granted, HBO pretty much handles a solid chunk of the exec duties since the show has been owned and distributed exclusively by HBO for a decade with no intent of that ever changing. So that actually takes a lot off Weiss and Benioff's tables.) But my point here is, because the creators have so much going on constantly, it's easy to see how dumb, little details get overlooked or lost in the abyss of production. (Example: the ice dragon fire can annihilate walls, yet it is unable to scorch a mere piece of rubble that Jon Snow is ducking behind. Get the fuck out of here.)

Regarding Arya Stark:

Spoiler

I believe that Arya had to be the one to kill the Night King. Her entire story arc in the TV series is based on her defying the stereotypical "high-born lady" trope and instead training to become this skilled fighter and assassin. She trains with Syrio, she trains with Sandor Clegane (in a way with their journey together), she trains at the House of Black & White, etc. She is always training. The creators had to put all of that to use. Otherwise, her story arc would've been wasted.

Will she be this way in the books? We don't know yet. But she has been always training thus far in the book series. So it has to be leading up to something, even if it is not the slaying of some grand, ultimate antagonist since the Night King doesn't exist in the books.

Regarding Azor Ahai:

Spoiler

Is Arya Azor Ahai? Well, no. She doesn't match the description. Yet she still prevented The Great Darkness or The Long Night from coming again much like the original, mythical Azor Ahai did. Is Jon Snow Azor Ahai? Well, also no. He doesn't match the description. Is Daenarys Stormborn Azor Ahai? Possibly, but there would have to be a sacrifice involved to confirm.

There is a chapter in the book series where Thoros of Myr describes who or what Azor Ahai was. And then, Melisandre is pretty much the only other character who goes into detail about Azor Ahai, and she does so multiple times in the books.

A big issue here is that Azor Ahai was the name of this mythical warrior in Westeros; however, there have been several other similar "Azor Ahai type figures" referred to over in Essos, specifically east of the Bone Mountains. These figures include: Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. So in all reality, Azor Ahai may not even be a real, concrete person or thing even thought there is this concept or construction of who he was. Thus, there really isn't any sense in assuming and saying "oh, Arya Stark is Azor Ahai" or "oh, Jon Snow is Azor Ahai".

It seems like the TV series took the Azor Ahai prophecy and made it into a meaningless, empty plot device or catalyst that will ultimately amount to nothing.

Also, I'd just like to plug this Reddit thread here.

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bipfrd/spoilers_extended_the_show_has_finally_become_the/

If you got some time, expand/read all of the comments and replies. The criticism of the TV series seems pretty valid and well-deserved on the creators' and writers' parts.

 

[Drew]

Regarding Beric Dondarrion:

Spoiler

It actually bummed me out that he finally died in this episode. But then again, Thoros of Myr wasn't around to revive him for the "19th time".

My issue with Beric is that he was a great plot device in the ASOIAF book series, and yet the TV series reduces him to nothing. In the book series, he died after his 7th time, in which he gave his life to revive Catelyn Stark (who became Lady Stoneheart) who joined the Brotherhood Without Banners before splitting off and leading her own factioned alliance. Does any of this exist in the TV series? Nope. But it plays a big role in the book series.

Regarding Arya Stark:

Spoiler

I believe that Arya had to be the one to kill the Night King. Her entire story arc in the TV series is based on her defying the stereotypical "high-born lady" trope and instead training to become this skilled fighter and assassin. She trains with Syrio, she trains with Sandor Clegane (in a way with their journey together), she trains at the House of Black & White, etc. She is always training. The creators HAD TO put all of that to use. Otherwise, her story arc would've been wasted.

Will she be this way in the books? We don't know yet. But she has been always training thus far in the book series. So it has to be leading up to even, even if it is not the slaying of some ultimate antagonist since the Night King doesn't exist in the books.

These two go hand in hand, I think.

Spoiler

So, if Beric was repeatedly brought back in the show because the Lord of the Light wanted him to be there to save Arya to give her the chance to kill the Night's King, then that's pretty clearly not the case in the books, because one he dies to bring us Lady Stoneheart (who seems no longer human enough to give her life for Arya, but I suppose you never know), and two because there IS no Night's King, so Arya would have to kill a whole slew of Others before she could kill the army of the dead.

I don't think GRRM has any particular scruples about snuffing out character arcs - see most of the Stark family - and Arya wanting revenge is a plausible enough reason on its own for her story arc. Idunno.

 

[Emperor Guillotine]

Ok, this cracked me up.

Spoiler

 

[diagrammatiks]

Ok, this cracked me up.

Spoiler

View attachment 68932

View attachment 68933

Spoiler

Actually the best twist at this point would be the Cersei crushes them and wins everything